Sorry, Anti-Vaxxers, But This Doctor Says You’re Abusing Your Kids

child-receives-vaccination-shotIt’s not a secret that I have a kind of special hatey-hole in my heart for anti-vaccination wackos. I don’t understand how people can ignore the gravity of what they’re doing when they refuse to innoculate their kids against preventable disease, all in the name of junk science. I don’t think I ever really thought of this behavior as “abusive” as I did “deeply moronic and logically flawed”, but one Australian doctor does and after hearing why I have to say I can get behind what he has to say.

Dr. Michael Gannon is an OB/GYN and the President of the Australian Medical Association, and he clarified his comments in an interview on The World Todaysaying:

No, I don’t retract the language at all. This is not for one moment to diminish, you know, the horrific crimes put onto children in other circumstances but denying your child and denying its little cousins, its schoolmates and its friends, the clear benefits of vaccination is something which potentially impairs their future potential.

We should do everything we can to look after our kids.

You guys know how I feel about tossing about the term “child abuse”. It’s been used to decry everything from ear piercing to sending your kids to the park alone to feeding babies lemons and it really grosses me out when people dilute its meaning by applying it to shit it has no business describing.

But I think in this particular case it does, in fact, make sense, given the situation that caused Gannon to label it this way. In Perth, a Western Australian state, the rate of children going without vaccination – especially among affluent families – is on the rise. In news that is sure to shock and amaze you, so is the measles rate.

MICHAEL GANNON: Western Australia is the poorest performing state when it comes to childhood vaccination rates and overall we’re hovering around the 90 per cent mark.

. . .
We had four cases of measles in the whole of the state last year, we’re up to 33 already and we’re only in August. We’ve heard about some cases in metropolitan Melbourne recently. This is laziness and complacency on the part of parents and we need to try and get the message out there.

ANNA VIDOT: In Victoria health authorities yesterday confirmed an outbreak of measles among unvaccinated children at one Melbourne primary school.

ROSEMARY LESTER: So that’s three confirmed cases and a further two suspected cases at the Essendon North Primary School and we do know that these children have attended a variety of other community and sporting functions while they were infectious. It’s a concern that we may see further cases arising in the community.

In case you forgot, some of the possible complications that can come with a case of measles include; pneumonia, diarrhea, encephalitis, and oh yeah, death.

What’s weird is that every single anti-vaxxer I know is absolutely obsesses with the idea of doing things like breastfeeding and buying organic peas all in the name of giving their kids every possible advantage. It’s more worrying to them that there might be a few pesticides on an apple than the fact that their kid could become encephalitic and lose their sight or hearing or die.

You’d be arrested for not buckling your child into a carseat, but it’s totally fine to put them at risk for all of this other stuff? I think that given the uptick in cases, if you knowingly put your child at risk by failing to vaccinate, then yes, you are denying them medical care that they need, which is abuse or at least pretty clearly neglect.

Also, I’m pretty sure the parents of kids who are immunocompromised would appreciate it if you went on ahead and fucked yourself.

As I’ve said, I’m never a fan of hyperbole when it comes to things like child abuse. However, I think it’s time to stop treating anti-vaxxers like they are adorable little idiots by using nicer, more palatable words. This is a serious issue, so why not use the serious language it deserves?

(Image: CandyBox/Shutterstock)

You can reach this post's author, Theresa Edwards, on twitter.
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    • jo

      Tedwards for president

      • http://overthecuckoonest.blogspot.com/ Wicked Prophet Kay Sue

        I would vote for her. I would vote for her so hard.

      • jo

        Maybe not even president, I’d settle for Common Sense Advocate

    • Michael Weldon

      My kids have all their shots and I think its important to do so but calling someone who doesn’t get shots abusive is over the top.
      Stats-wise if you let your kids in a car, have them do gymnastics, cheerleading, or contact sports, or let them skydive or scuba your chances of a injured or dead kid is a lot higher.
      Heck if you have a pool, have a pit bull, or keep a gun in the house its a lot more dangerous than not getting your shots. There is also a big difference btwn not getting shots at all and those who choose to have a delayed schedule.

      • KaeTay

        it’s kind of hard to say one is more dangerous than the other without some statistical fact behind it. They’re having an issue with measles in the country so he’s raising issue that the parents who aren’t vaccinating are putting those around them in danger.

        I wouldn’t call it child abuse either but I would call it extremely irresponsible.

      • Michael Weldon

        Agree, but my point is we do all kinds of stuff with our kids that is a lot more likely to actually cause them harm and don’t call it abuse. So why call this act (or more properly this non-act) abuse? I have a feeling its because people like feeling morally superior to other people, and thus beating up anti-vaxers makes some people feel good way out of proportion to the actual importance of the issue.

      • Spongeworthy

        People “beat up” anti-vaxxers because their actions affect more than just themselves. When you don’t vaccinate your kids, there is the risk that your kid could make others sick.

      • CMJ

        DING DING DING.

      • Michael Weldon

        Look at the CDC charts. The risks are tiny. How many deaths have come as a result of non-vax morons over the last 20 years here in the states? I bet the number is smaller than the number killed by lightning strikes, and by an order of magnitude.

      • whiteroses

        Because most people still vaccinate. If people stop vaccinating, diseases become epidemics.

        Basic science, dude. Basic science.

      • Michael Weldon

        You are making a giant assumption that people in mass will stop vax. Between the net, doctors, schools, and peer pressure I don’t see it.
        Where do you see this as a huge threat that most of the country will stop shots? I have yet to see any articles that quantify this as anything other than a moronic fringe movement.

      • whiteroses

        Because the rates of people who are choosing not to vaxx are rising–and so are the rates of whooping cough and diseases like it that we could have easily eradicated by now. The more people who choose to stop vaccinating, the more likely we are to have more and more people get sick and die.

      • Michael Weldon

        Do you have stats that confim that rise? Given the last few years in the news I doubt it. It may be that the spike in illegal kids has raised the % in 2014 but the CDC reports a 1.8 to 5% vax refusal rate as of August 2013 (depending on the vax in question), which has been fairly consitant since 2009.

      • Rachel Sea

        There are schools in my county with 26% vaccination rates. TWENTY SIX PERCENT. That is not fringe, that’s a majority, and these are wealthy, educated parents.

      • Rachel Sea

        This year, in my county there have been more cases of whooping cough than there have been car accidents involving children. More children have died from it than died in car accidents. It used to be that riding in a car was one of the most dangerous things you could do with your kid, but the anti-vaxers have fixed that.

      • Michael Weldon

        What country is that? Does your country have doctors, schools, websites, and peer pressure to get your shots like the US does?

      • whiteroses

        She said “county”. Not “country”. Two completely different things.

      • Rachel Sea

        County, not country. I live an hour from San Francisco. We have 3 world class children’s hospitals nearby, and babies and immune compromised kids are dying because people (almost all rich people at public schools) aren’t vaccinating their kids, and it’s creating pockets of epidemic.

      • Hibbie

        How do people not understand this? Preach, Spongeworthy.

      • whiteroses

        I personally believe that once you make choices that could affect my family, it’s open season for me to complain. Give your kid vaccines or don’t. As long as you understand that the deafness, blindness, brain damage, sterility, disfigurement or death you could be condemning them to as a result of your negligence are all likely possibilities- and that if it happens to another kid as a result of your negligence that’s something you’ll have to live with, possibly through a civil suit- then it is what it is.

    • Jen TheTit Whipper

      I need a popcorn GIF. Where is CMJ when I need her?

    • Michael Weldon
      • CMJ

        Well, that’s what you might worry about. But people who are immunocompromised, have immunocompromised children, have children who are too young for vaccines, etc worry about things like measles regularly.

      • Michael Weldon

        Please look at the stats. I can worry about being mauled to death by chipmunks all day long, it doesn’t mean that its all that rational to do so.
        Death and/or severe injury from diseases that have vax for them is so small for every age range that it literally does not show up on the charts…
        Unless you think the CDC is full of it.

      • CMJ

        I did.

        The thing is, you can’t control some of these things. They are accidents. You know what you CAN control? Giving your kid a shot so they don’t get the measles and don’t infect other kids….Herd Immunity is a very real and powerful thing.

      • Michael Weldon

        CMJ, you can also control not having a gun, a pool, or a pit bull. But we don’t call people that have those things abusive. My point is that word is far to strong to use in this case.

      • Véronique the Attachment Shark

        but with the guns, you lock them up in a safe. You make sure the safety is on. you give your child lessons on gun safety. you bring them to target practice to make sure they know how you properly use the gun.

        With pools, you give the children swimming lessons. you put a fence around the pool. you give your child instructions as to when and where it’s safe to swim.

        With pit bulls, you make sure that the pit bull is properly trained with children. that it does not show aggression when someone touches their food. you teach your child how to treat the animal. you try to avoid leaving a child unattended with the dog.

        They do not prevent 100% of deaths, but they significantly reduce risks of injury. just like vaccines.

      • Michael Weldon

        True, but even with mitigation steps stats show that all of those things/pets are more dangerous than not getting your shots.
        Not trying to be a prick here, but I have known a few kids who were actually abused, and using the term for avoiding shots does not set well with me.

      • Véronique the Attachment Shark

        Abuse comes in many shapes and forms. Some are more overt, and some are more covert.

      • Michael Weldon

        Fair enough, but if a parent places a child’s life in risk in scenario A and we call that abuse we should call it abuse when a parent puts a child in a situation with more risk than scenario A. I just think calling something stupid abuse leads to a degradation of the term abuse.

      • Spongeworthy

        Do you want to know why it’s such a small risk? BECAUSE OF VACCINES. If people continue to not get them, the risk is going to to jump. It already has. Is that really so hard to understand?

      • CMJ

        But, but…DID YOU READ?!?!

      • Michael Weldon

        I did. Let me put it this way, I literally want to kill idiots who yak on cellphones or drink and drive because they are placing my life and my families life at substancial risk, and that risk is validated by stats.
        This is not a risk worth being worried about if you look at the numbers. Particularly if you get your shots.

      • CMJ

        I was being sarcastic….with spongeworthy.

        And now for a true story – I was fully vaccinated as a child….however, the mumps part of the MMR shot in the specific batch I was given did not work. I got the mumps. On both sides. I was absolutely miserable. That being said, I was a healthy child and luckily, I did not have any complications. The same might not be true for an immunocompromised person. My point is, as long as these diseases still exist, it is dangerous. You keep saying “it’s nothing to worry about” but the reality is – people DO have to worry about it. Just because you don’t think it’s a big deal doesn’t make it so for everyone.

      • Michael Weldon

        Oddly the same thing for me-I have had all my shots + 10′s extra due to military requirements and still got mumps when I was 30. It sucked but was less of a pain than my last flu 10 years ago.

        I see your point but it seems a lot like the ebola worry than worry about heart disease, car wreaks, or cancer.

      • Michael Weldon

        Why do you assume that more than a tiny % of the country will ever be stupid enough to not get shots? And does some idiot who doesn’t get a shot really affect that many people. Please feel free to look at the CDC charts and review the actual risks if you get your shots. The risk is tiny and the non-vax clowns have been around for a while now.

      • Jen TheTit Whipper

        because as Theresa pointed out the number is growing. If it’s not addressed it will continue to grow. Then the number won’t be a tiny percent.

      • Michael Weldon

        This is being addressed 100′s of times a year on line. And with every doctor visit. And if you get your shots the odds of it becoming your problem remain tiny. Please look at the numbers and tell me why you are so afraid of this.
        Also, have none of you known any kids who were actually abused? Does this honestly rank up there with that?

      • Jen TheTit Whipper

        I have worked with children who were abused. And yes I would say watching a child waste away with measles and be in pain, all of which is preventable, is abuse.

      • Tazlima

        Have you ever seen a dog with parvo? The lining of their intestines sloughs off and exits the body mixed with the most vile-smelling diarrhea you can imagine, a thousand times worse than normal diarrhea. There’s no cure. You can only provide supportive treatment (keep them hydrated, give them antibiotics to stave off secondary infections, give them anti-emitics to ease their misery a bit), and hope their bodies fight off the virus. That supportive care is expensive and even under the best circumstances a high percentage of the patients die.

        I’ve helped treat countless cases of parvo and you know what the worst part is? The knowledge that it didn’t have to be this way. To watch a wonderful, sweet dog die in a horrible manner and know that their suffering was unnecessary. It could have been prevented with an inexpensive vaccine. I’ve witnessed the guilt that pet owners feel when they realize that their inaction brought this about. I cannot imagine the guilt if it were their child.

        Is the risk low? At the moment yes, although as others have mentioned, not nearly as low as it used to be or as it should be.

        I think the seatbelt analogy is apt. Certainly a buckled-in kid could still potentially die in a car crash and the parents will probably feel guilty even if there was no way they could have avoided the accident. However, at least they won’t spend the rest of their lives asking themselves, “would my child still be alive if I had only fastened his/her seatbelt? It would only have taken a second.”

        As long as the anti-vaccination movement exists, these kinds of articles will be necessary. The more the better, I say. If someone goes to research the issue, I want them to find five articles for vaccination to every one against.

      • rockmonster

        D:

      • Spongeworthy

        Because the number of people choosing to not vaccinate is climbing. Because the number of cases of measles and whooping cough are climbing.
        And this may shock you, but just because I’ve had my shots and my kid has doesn’t mean that I don’t have concern for my friends who have babies too young to be vaccinated, or friends and family who are unable to get shots. People not vaccinating has way more of an impact than just on the individual.

      • Jen TheTit Whipper

        Jinx! Buy you a coke?

      • Spongeworthy

        How ’bout a margarita? I’ll buy you one too.

      • Jen TheTit Whipper

        Done!

      • Blueathena623

        Just FYI, the CDC ain’t having a banner year of keeping track of stuff, just sayin.

      • Joye77

        Some of these things are accidents and diseases that cannot be prevented in any way. But measles can. If we have the technology to prevent measles from ever occurring then we should take advantage of that. There shouldn’t be ANY cases of measles in a country where the vaccine is readily available.

    • LadyClodia the Modest Rat
      • http://overthecuckoonest.blogspot.com/ Wicked Prophet Kay Sue

        This GIF is amazing.

    • whiteroses

      Cue the anti- science morons in three…two…one…

      • guest

        David is already here trying to be sly about it

    • Rachel Sea

      If you hit your kid in the head with a rock so that they become brain damaged, that’s clear abuse, and I don’t think it’s much of a stretch that if you neglect vaccines, and your child becomes brain damaged, that it was an equally deliberate abusive act.

      • Michael Weldon

        So if you let your son play football or your daughter cheerlead and they end up with a head injury are you guilty of a deliberate abusive act?

      • Lindsey

        Only if you don’t try to prevent the injuries. A vaccine will not stop 100% of disease, but it will help prevent the disease.

      • Michael Weldon

        How do you go about trying and preventing injuries in activities with high and known dangerous risks (kids who ski, sports, etc). Again, I think non-vax types are being stupid, but if you call what they do abuse then almost every parent in the country could be called abusive for one choice or another that they make for their kids.

      • Véronique the Attachment Shark

        Helmets, safety lessons, good and proper teaching, proper protective gear. Just like vaccines, they moderate the risks of serious injury, but never claim to be a guarantee that the child won’t get hurt.

      • Michael Weldon

        Fair enough, but even with those mitigation efforts a lot of the high risk sports/fun activities are still far more dangerous than not getting your shots. So abuse seems like way too strong of a term. Stupid would fit, and that is what I call those who avoid shots.

      • Véronique the Attachment Shark

        as everyone has mentioned before, the point is that if people continue NOT to vaccinates, the rates of illness will go up, and so will rates of injuries and death due to these illnesses. And one day, these rates will far surpass the risks associated with sports.

        Do you really want to wait until that day comes, or do you just want to use your pretty excellent sense of logic in order to properly assess risk scenarios?

      • Michael Weldon

        I just don’t think that day will ever come. Doctors and stories like this will continue. The level of morons in the country will remain below any statistical danger to me or my family, and the CDC stats continue to refect that.

      • Lindsey

        There is a whooping cough epidemic in California, right now, because of anti-vaxxers. Ten babies have died, more than 9000 people have been infected and yet, it continues. Yes, these rates are lower than injuries in sports, but guess what? A kid walking down the street can break their leg. No vaccine is going to guarantee safety, but it certainly increases their chances. To deny a child medical care is abuse.

      • Michael Weldon

        The articles I looked up both said 2 deaths (and its not clear that the lack of vax is an active choice by anti-vax morons or a result of illegals that have lacked medical care opportunities nor did it state if the dead kids had gotten shots or not), but I see your point. Given the small number though, I still think the word abuse is overkill here.

      • whiteroses

        I wonder if you’d be saying those 2 deaths didn’t matter if they were members of your family.

      • Michael Weldon

        Well considering that my family gets all their shots (and its a pain because 2 of my kids are absolute babies about needles) the situation is very unlikely. Futher, I would probably feel the same if my daughter died playing soccer or my son died as a result of a climbing injury. In none of those cases would I call it abuse though.

      • whiteroses

        Because sports and disease are two entirely different things. One death is nearly preventable, the other isn’t. If you’re pro-vaxx, shouldn’t you be arguing that parents get vaccinations for their kids?

      • Michael Weldon

        I simply don’t think the risk is high enough to have parents forced to get shots for their kids. I certainly think everyone should get shots though.

      • CC

        How is the risk not high enough?? You just need to see a few more dead babies first or what?

      • Rachel Sea

        I wonder what exactly is the unacceptable number of dead babies? If we were talking about cribs, one dead baby in 20 years would be enough for legislation, but because it’s vaccines it clearly has to be well over 20 babies a year.

      • CC

        I don’t know, maybe like, a baker’s dozen every month? Sounds about right.

      • whiteroses

        The risk is only not high enough for you because you’ve never had someone in your family die or get sick as a result of being unvaxxed, I’d wager.

      • Rachel Sea

        All of the babies who died contracted the infections before they were fully immunized. The anti-vaxers are killing other people’s kids because they have destroyed herd immunity.

      • Lindsey

        http://www.cdph.ca.gov/healthinfo/discond/pages/pertussis.aspx

        Straight from the California Department of Public Health. Also, the deaths are infants, which means that they are probably too young to be vaccinated or fully vaccinated against the disease.

      • Rachel Sea

        There were two deaths in the first half of 2014 from whooping cough alone (there has since been a third), there have been several more who died of secondary infections whose listed cause of death was pneumonia. 10 infants died of whooping cough in 2010, with many more also dying of secondary infections.

      • Rachel Sea

        In areas of California, we are already seeing infant and child mortality rates from vaccine-preventable illness exceeding accidental deaths. I have friends who are terrified to take their newborns out in public because of the epidemics.

      • Joye77

        I think that child neglect fits the bill a bit better.

      • Rachel Sea

        They are only more dangerous than not getting your shots in areas that maintain herd immunity. If your kid goes to a school with no herd immunity, then not vaccinating is more dangerous than any of those sports.

      • Véronique the Attachment Shark

        And yes, I would find parent to be abusive if he just let his kid go down a ski slope without a winter suit on, or a helmet, or without lessons.

      • Spongeworthy

        You make kids who play football wear pads and a helmet. You develop protocols for concussions to bring down the number of repeat injuries. You give a kid ski lessons before taking him to the top of a Black Diamond. You train cheerleaders on proper holds, lifts, throws, and catches before you let them do the bigger stunts. And on and on and on.

      • Michael Weldon

        You are still far more likely to have an injured or dead kid if you do all that spongeworthy than if you have a kid who doesn’t take there shots. So I still can’t see how calling this abuse is accurate language.

      • Véronique the Attachment Shark

        You will never know this, truly, because the more anti-vaxxers do not vaccinate, the higher the rates of illnesses will become, and the higher the rates of injuries and deaths will occur. Do you want to wait and see what happens in this case, or do you want to use past experience with current medical advances combined with likelihood of the parents of seeking proper help to assess the risks of death if you don’t vaccinate all the kids?

      • whiteroses

        Exactly. If vaccines don’t work, who would be willing to offer up their own child to test that theory?

      • Boozy Shark Lee

        If you let your son play high school football without a helmet than possibly. If you let your daughter who has never been a cheerleader in her life be the top of the pyramid without a spotter than possibly.

      • Blueathena623

        You can’t compare the two since sports don’t have a public health aspect. If a kid dies while skiing, that’s sad, but unless that kid also endangers kids who weren’t even skiing, it’s not comparable.

    • keelhaulrose

      Silly Theresa, thinking anti vaxxers give a damn about what medical professionals with years of actual education and years more of hands on experience think. They’ve done hours of research on Google U! Google U!

      • whiteroses

        And they have a PHD from the Medical School of WebMD.

      • Lilly
      • CC

        lollll AND NOT EVEN ONE RESULT. Dude had his medical license stripped for that irresponsible “study.” I tell people this all the time and they don’t care. Like a fucking braindead dog with a bone.

      • Lilly

        it’s from a youtube show called “if google was a guy” so some results from questionable sources would show up

      • Amber Leigh Wood

        Don’t you know the “real” reason that guy had his medical license stripped? Because he was right and it’s a giant government conspiracy…. Big pharama…. Bribing ….. Blah blah blah….

        * all sarcasm in case it was misinterpreted *

      • Jeff

        The whole profession of psychiatry is destroying countless lives with toxic drugs. Millions people are on drugs without a single proof that one of those mental disorders even exist.

        There’s no lab test to back up a diagnosis.
        No urine test, no blood test,
        no saliva test… Nothing!
        What’s exactly the normal chemical level of balance? Can I see it?

        What the government and the Department of Justice are doing about this fraud? Nothing,

        It might be a giant conspiracy finally.

      • Amber Leigh Wood

        I wasn’t discussing drugs that are associated with mental illness I was discussing vaccines, I wouldn’t comment on physciatric drugs because I don’t know anything about them.

      • keelhaulrose

        I hope you’re being facetious, because I’ve seen enough mental disorders to know they’re there. Nothing like seeing an unmediated schizophrenic in a violent episode over a minor disagreement, then see them apologize less than a week later after starting their drug regimen and becoming more rational.

      • whiteroses

        Spoken like a person who has never seen untreated schizophrenia or unmedicated bipolar disorder.

      • WriterLady

        Jeff, I’d like to point out a couple of things. I apologize for the length of my post, but I’m passionate about stopping the anti-vaxx movement as well as educating others about mental health and how the medical community diagnoses and treats mental illnesses.

        1.) Because the purpose of this article is to discuss the dangers of refusing to vaccinate, rather than issues related to mental health and mental illnesses, your post is a little confusing and off-base. I’m really unsure as to why you chose not to focus on the topic at hand, although I will attempt to address your questions about how doctors, scientists, and other professionals are using modern technology to diagnose and treat individuals suffering from a clinical mental health disorder. First, however, let’s discuss why vaccinations are not some trumped-up scheme imposed by the feds or the CDC or the World Health Organization (WHO). It should be crystal clear that the reason polio, tuberculosis, measles, and other potentially fatal diseases have been virtually eradicated in developed countries is due to the advent of vaccines starting more than a half-century ago. A little perspective: When my mom was a child, she knew of multiple people who were impacted by polio. Some became paralyzed; others died. Fast forward a decade or so, and the rate dropped dramatically. By the latter part of the 20th century, you almost never heard of someone in the U.S. contracting one of these diseases, thanks to the creation of vaccinations. Unfortunately, many people in third-world countries suffer from these diseases because they don’t have access to vaccines or proper medical care. It’s a matter of life or death for these people, and only a person who has benefited from living in an advanced society would decry the use of life-saving pharmaceuticals. Look, we all realize that the healthcare and pharmaceutical industries profit from the vaccinations and doctor visits, but healthcare is not free. Also, vaccines are part of wellness checkups, and the office visits are relatively inexpensive (even for those without insurance, which currently includes my family–we pay out-of-pocket for any and all checkups, visits, procedures, and medications because I am self-employed and my husband is a contract employee). I don’t know about you, but I have zero qualms with spending some money to protect my son and his acquaintances from harm. Also, let’s not forget that the main doctor who originally made the autism-vaccine connection has vigorously recanted his claims. Yet, Jenny McCarthy and other nitwit celebrities have deliberately helped to create unnecessary, paranoia-fueled claims that vaccinations are dangerous. And now that conspiracy theorists and new-agey types have bought into the hype, some of these diseases are making a noticeable and alarming resurgence for the first time in decades, thanks to the broad dissemination of false information beginning over a decade ago. There’s a reason why daycare centers/preschools and school districts require proof of a child’s vaccination record. Because once enough parents stop vaccinating their children, the herd immunity slowly begins to decline in a community, causing more and more people—particularly very young kids, the elderly, and people with autoimmune disorders—to become susceptible to contracting a disease that should never have resurfaced in the first place. But this is indeed happening across the country, as rebellious folks who think they know more abut medical conditions and medications than seasoned physicians hop on the anti-vaxx bandwagon.

        2.) Regarding your claims about mental illness: To be as blunt as possible, you’re implication that doctors have no way of objectively determining if someone has a mental illness–or is prone to developing one in the future–is incorrect. First of all, mental illnesses are clinical medical disorders. That truism must be established first, since way too many people are in denial about the existence of a disorder that they can’t observe. From the National Alliance on Mental Illness: “A mental illness is a medical condition that disrupts a person’s thinking, feeling, mood, ability to relate to others and daily functioning. Just as diabetes is a disorder of the pancreas, mental illnesses are medical conditions that often result in a diminished capacity for coping with the ordinary demands of life.”
        http://www.nami.org/Template.cfm?Section=By_Illness

        Conditions such as depression, anxiety, and bipolar disorder (just to name a few) are illnesses of the brain. Some people with long-term mental health problems have been simultaneously diagnosed as having chemical imbalances, which can be detected through various forms of testing (contrary to your hypothesis). For instance, bloodwork is often done to rule out other medical problems, such as a thyroid issue (particularly in the case of a patient suffering from anxiety). Bloodwork can also be used to identify genetic predispositions and biomarkers associated with certain disorders, which can lead to an accurate diagnosis. And according to a publication from the Harvard Medical School, doctors can now utilize a plethora of sophisticated tests commonly used in diagnosing cancer, dementia, and hundreds of other conditions to determine whether or not a patient has one or more mental illnesses, and if so, which one(s). This is in addition to bloodwork and a psychiatric evaluation. [See the link to the Harvard publication below, toward the end of my post. The focus is primarily on depression, but we can extrapolate from the text that the same tests and evaluations are often used in patients dealing with other types of mental illness.]

        From Harvard’s site: “Increasingly sophisticated forms of brain imaging — such as positron emission tomography (PET), single-photon emission computed tomography (SPECT), and functional magnetic resonance imaging (fMRI) — permit a much closer look at the working brain than was possible in the past. An fMRI scan, for example, can track changes that take place when a region of the brain responds during various tasks. A PET or SPECT scan can map the brain by measuring the distribution and density of neurotransmitter receptors in certain areas. Use of this technology has led to a better understanding of which brain regions regulate mood and how other functions, such as memory, may be affected by depression. Areas that play a significant role in depression are the amygdala, the thalamus, and the hippocampus. Research shows that the hippocampus is smaller in some depressed people. For example, in one fMRI study published in The Journal of Neuroscience, investigators studied 24 women who had a history of depression. On average, the hippocampus was 9% to 13% smaller in depressed women compared with those who were not depressed. The more bouts of depression a woman had, the smaller the hippocampus. Stress, which plays a role in depression, may be a key factor here, since experts believe stress can suppress the production of new neurons (nerve cells) in the hippocampus.”
        ***Electroencephalograms (EEGs), can also be used to detect and analyze electrical activity in the brain, which can be useful in determining a potential mental illness.

        The Harvard publication contains an abundance of information about the connection between the brain and mental illnesses, so I could add numerous quotes to help address your questions, but I suspect that you are capable of reading this particular article, as well as the others, on your own terms. However, I will add several additional pieces of information regarding the role of neurotransmitters, which are critical to understanding mental health: “Neurotransmitters are chemicals that relay messages from neuron to neuron. An antidepressant medication tends to increase the concentration of these substances in the spaces between neurons (the synapses). In many cases, this shift appears to give the system enough of a nudge so that the brain can do its job better. (…) Brain cells usually produce levels of neurotransmitters that keep senses, learning, movements, and moods perking along. But in some people who are severely depressed or manic, the complex systems that accomplish this go awry. For example, receptors may be oversensitive or insensitive to a specific neurotransmitter, causing their response to its release to be excessive or inadequate. Or a message might be weakened if the originating cell pumps out too little of a neurotransmitter or if an overly efficient reuptake mops up too much before the molecules have the chance to bind to the receptors on other neurons. Any of these system faults could significantly affect mood.”

        And here’s what happens when certain neurotransmitters do not work properly in people suffering from mental illness: “Scientists have identified many different neurotransmitters. Here is a description of a few believed to play a role in depression:
        Acetylcholine enhances memory and is involved in learning and recall.
        Serotonin helps regulate sleep, appetite, and mood and inhibits pain. Research supports the idea that some depressed people have reduced serotonin transmission. Low levels of a serotonin byproduct have been linked to a higher risk for suicide.
        Norepinephrine constricts blood vessels, raising blood pressure. It may trigger anxiety and be involved in some types of depression. It also seems to help determine motivation and reward.
        Dopamine is essential to movement. It also influences motivation and plays a role in how a person perceives reality. Problems in dopamine transmission have been associated with psychosis, a severe form of distorted thinking characterized by hallucinations or delusions. It’s also involved in the brain’s reward system, so it is thought to play a role in substance abuse.
        Glutamate is a small molecule believed to act as an excitatory neurotransmitter and to play a role in bipolar disorder and schizophrenia. Lithium carbonate, a well-known mood stabilizer used to treat bipolar disorder, helps prevent damage to neurons in the brains of rats exposed to high levels of glutamate. Other animal research suggests that lithium might stabilize glutamate reuptake, a mechanism that may explain how the drug smooths out the highs of mania and the lows of depression in the long term.
        Gamma-aminobutyric acid (GABA) is an amino acid that researchers believe acts as an inhibitory neurotransmitter. It is thought to help quell anxiety.”
        http://www.health.harvard.edu/newsweek/what-causes-depression.htm

        Hopefully, this answered most of your questions. All you need to do is Google reputable medical sites for more information, or check with your local library to read up on the topic. The same goes for obtaining information regarding vaccinations. If you suspect you might be suffering from a mental illness, your doctor will be able to assist you. Remember, the medical community–including government agencies such as the NIH (the National Institutes of Health) and the CDC, as well as collegiate research insitutions–are not your enemy. I agree that healthcare is outrageously expensive, but that’s mostly because too many Americans believe that a universal healthcare plan is tantamount to encroaching communism, despite the fact that nearly every other industrialized nation in the world operates their healthcare systems in this manner (including all of the western European countries, Canada, and Australia).

      • Joye77

        First of all your comment has nothing to do with the original post.
        That aside, I would like to tell you to F&*$^ the hell off! I have a history of severe depression and anxiety and have been on antidepressant medication for most of my adult life with good results.
        Mental illness is as much a medical condition as diabetes or heart disease and at the very worst it can be fatal ( suicide).
        Sufferers as myself still have to fight a social stigma that surrounds mental illness and deniers such as yourself don’t help matters.

      • gammachris

        Jeff, I have bipolar disorder. The use of lithium has immeasurably improved the quality of my life. You are an uneducated moron.

      • Spongeworthy

        This is fantastic.

      • Sri

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    • jaded

      I always laugh when someone writes/says, “I read the science!” Both sides say it, but I doubt either really reads more than an abstract or another person’s interpretation of the science. I have a science degree and have read the actual science, both sides have valid points and it would be better for all if they just listened to each other and focused on creating safer vaccines.

      My first child suffered reactions to vaccines, ones that have left permanent damage (not autism or asperger’s) so my other two are vaccine free. I do not consider myself “anti vax”, and I honestly cringe at the sight of the word, but am pro safer vaccines.

      • Rachel Sea

        That’s a non-argument. They are always working on making safer vaccines, and every several years a new formulation is released which is safer and more effective than the last one.

      • CMJ

        I am always weary of people who claim to have science degrees that say anti-vaxxers have “solid points.”

      • Joye77

        I personally am not aware of one “solid point” in the anti vax movement.

      • Rachel Sea

        They are correct that vaccines contain chemicals, but that’s all.

        Other things which include chemicals are air, water, kale and babies, so anti-vaxers should not be allowed to be around any of those things.

      • CC

        I love this old article talking about how you are basically dumping your entire lifetime’s chemical build-up into your infant when you breastfeed–

        http://www.nytimes.com/2005/01/09/magazine/09TOXIC.html?pagewanted=print&position=&_r=1&

        I nurse my babies so I’m not knocking breastmilk, but people need to get a fucking grip. EVERYTHING contains chemicals, there is no way around it.

      • rockmonster

        B-But that’s what vil sciencetists say!!!11!

      • whiteroses

        Choosing not to vaccinate isn’t a “solid point”. It’s exercising your “right” to kill your child and/or other people.

      • What?

        *cough*SciencedegreefromgoogleU*cough* What?

      • Tsitika

        I’m pretty sure this doctor has read the actual science in, you know, medical journals. I also have a science degree and am currently working in a science field (although not medical). I have also read the actual science. And the actual science overwhelmingly says vaccines are a good idea. What recent, valid journal articles have you read that suggest not vaccinating is safer? I’m sorry that your child had reactions to the vaccines, truly. That does not negate the overwhelming good vaccines do. Some people suffer sudden death when given general anesthesia, but we do not advocate a return to anesthesia-free surgery, because the benefits for most of the population outweigh the risks. And while I’m sure research is being done on making safer general anesthesia, I’m personally not going to stay awake during surgery because it can’t be guaranteed 100% safe for everyone.

      • http://overthecuckoonest.blogspot.com/ Wicked Prophet Kay Sue

        Well. That was fascinating. Where can I get a degree in science? The last time I checked, they’re a little more specific–I’d really love a general one.

      • Spongeworthy

        A degree in Hygience.

      • Blueathena623

        B.A. in biology and a Masters in Public Heath.
        Your turn — what science degree do you have?

      • K.

        Your degree is what level?

        And what sort of science do you study or what field are you in?

      • brebayVadgeBadge

        For real. What scientist says “a science degree?”

      • lea

        I’m a research immunologist/microbiologist. So I’ve also read the science.

        One side has science, the other has bullshit.

    • Alison

      This article is RIDICULOUS. Sorry, by using this flawed logic in this article, putting a child in a car would ALSO be considered child abuse. Way way way more children die in car accidents in this country than by vaccine preventable diseases.

      Do you know how many people die in car accidents in the United States each year? 30,800 people. EACH YEAR! Do you know how many people died from measles last year? ZERO! Out of all the cases (587) not one kid or person died.

      But not giving a vaccine is child abuse but placing a child in a car isn’t?

      Sorry, not buying this argument at all. If there were 31K people were dying from vaccine treatable illnesses in this country, each year, it would be considered a pandemic. How come no outcry for the number of people who die from car crashes? Car crashes are ALSO preventable by never going in a car. Every mother, everywhere is taking a (bigger) risk each time they plop themselves down in their car and go for a spin.

      I am not an anti-vaxxer, but I am a slow vaxxer, for sure. And, I appreciate deciding what is comfortable for my kids WITHOUT being called abusive. As I said above,that is ridiculous.

      • Rachel Sea

        More kids have died from whooping cough in my county than from car accidents this year.

      • Lindsey

        Alison, just as a FYI, 1 person dying from measles in the US would be an epidemic, since 0 deaths is normal, but 31K would not be a pandemic, either(that’s for world, not individual countries).

        Kids are put into cars with car seats and safety restraints, to try and ease those numbers. A vaccine does the same thing.

      • Véronique the Attachment Shark

        other safety measures for cars are driving lessons, licences, police controls…

      • http://overthecuckoonest.blogspot.com/ Wicked Prophet Kay Sue

        This is faulty logic.

        Vaccines are a tool for preventing disease. You are exposed to the disease, if you are going to be, regardless of whether you have the vaccine are not.

        If we are going to use the same analogy to deaths and injuries by car accidents, then what you are looking at is not the getting in a car or not–that’s much like being exposed to a disease whether you are vaccinated or not, because the cars are still all around you. You could quite conceivably be struck by a car walking across the street, or walking on the sidewalk, or sitting in your living room.

        Thus, it’s not getting in the car or not that’s the issue. It’s whether you take appropriate preventative measures in the car. Do you make sure the driver is licensed? Do you make sure the driver is sober? Do you wear your seatbelt? For children, do you put them in appropriate safety apparatus, based on their size?

        What I am saying–and it may be convoluted, because I am caffeine-less today–is that vaccines aren’t like cars. Vaccines are like carseats…and if you don’t put your child in a carseat, as recommended, you’re at the least guilt of neglect.

      • CC

        Well -I- would appreciate it if you wouldn’t gamble with my childrens’ lives by making your neglectful, irresponsible parenting choices. My kids are most comfortable being alive and well.

      • Blueathena623

        How many people died worldwide from measles last year?

      • keelhaulrose

        Approximately 122,000, the vast majority of which were children under 5 in places that don’t have universal access to vaccinations like we do here.

        http://www.who.int/mediacentre/factsheets/fs286/en/

      • Bleu Cheese Bewbs
      • Elizabeth Wakefield

        My mother’s sister contracted measles as a child. She, like the 587 cases in the US, also did not die. But she did live for 27 years in a coma-like state similar to that of Terry Schiavo because the measles went to her brain. Dying isn’t always the worst outcome of these diseases.

      • Chris

        Amen. Truly.

      • shorty_RN

        Feel free to not vaccinate your kids. That is your choice. Just keep them the hell away from my kids/loved ones.

    • Joye77

      I wish antivaxxers could go back in time and have a talk with mothers a hundred years ago that had to watch a child suffer and die from an illness we now can prevent. Maybe then they would get a friggin’ clue.
      I don’t know if I would categorize not having you child vaccinated as actual abuse, but definitely child neglect. That sounds more accurate to me.
      But I imagine this Dr. in Australia is crazy pissed off about the low vax rates, so perhaps he is verbalizing his outrage with the extreme language of “abuse”.

      • keelhaulrose

        Hell, I’d wish they’d just talk to my mom, who got polio as a young girl and was put in a polio ward, where there were kids with deformed limbs (like her), in iron lungs, and dying. This was the year before the vaccine, and she said you could see in her school the effect (it was a school for the disabled), where enrollment dropped dramatically with incoming kids who had never lived in a world without a polio vaccine.
        It’s not like these epidemics were so long ago you can’t find people who lived through it.

      • Joye77

        I have taken care of plenty of elderly folks that were weakened or have paralyzed limbs due to childhood polio. I bet that they would have loved to have the vaccine back then, when we have morons that opt out because they read somewhere that Big Pharma is poisoning their special snowflake.

      • keelhaulrose

        When the vaccine came out people lined up to get it for a reason: the small risk of a side effect was worth it to prevent the much larger chance of your child dying from the disease.

      • elle.m.jay

        My mother in law is a polio survivor. My sister in law is an anti-vaxxer. WTF?!

      • keelhaulrose

        Your sister in law not the brightest bulb, is she?

      • elle.m.jay

        For reals. I was shocked when I found out. I mean, really?! She also convinced her ex-husband to treat his prostate cancer with vitamins. Guess how that’s going…

      • keelhaulrose

        Ex-husband, you say? I can see why. Too bad there’s no vaccination for stupid.

      • Rachel Sea

        They could come visit one of the group homes where I worked, where a number of the residents were brain damaged because of encephaly due to measles. One week they were normal elementary school kids, and the next they were severely disabled, no longer able to talk, some of them unable to feed or dress themselves, and most of them in diapers.

      • kittymom

        Hell, I can tell you about pertussis! (I was vaccinated, my sister and brother couldn’t be, and I caught it once my initial immunity wore off- It FUCKING SUCKS. And I was a grown kid, not a sweet, darling, innocent BABY). Hence, I got a booster when my SIL told me she was preggo, to protect my nephew.

      • Looby

        They don’t need to go back in time. A girl I went to school with (I’m in my mid 30s) has a tombstone to visit instead of a little girl starting senior school in sept because she “didn’t believe in injecting poison” into her baby. Measles kills.

    • Hibbie

      Parents who don’t get their children vaccinated should face a hefty fine (excepting children with health conditions preventing vaccination, of course). They should also have to take a parenting class. This shit is getting ridiculous.

      • Maria Guido

        I think you’re on to something.

      • Michael Weldon

        This is not dangerous enough to have the full power of the state coming down on these people. Where do you draw the line if you advocate for this? Do parents who take ski vacations or have kids take scuba lessons or have kids who do sports owe a fine and need parenting lessons too?

      • Henrysmama

        YET. It’s not dangerous enough YET. Long ago eradicated diseases are now turning up again because people are not vaccinating. You’ve been asked this question numerous times but have failed to answer it: should we wait until there’s an epidemic before we do anything? Or should we just keep plugging our ears and singing “la la la la, there’s no problem!!” until it’s too late? Sure, there’s not too many cases NOW, but the cases are increasing. That is the point. The risk will not be the same 5 years from now as it is now. It’s increasing.

      • Rachel Sea

        Exactly how many people have to die to make it dangerous enough? I don’t understand how 10+ people a year is not enough to mandate vaccines, when a misused product can be banned when one baby dies.

    • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

      So this raises a good point – what really IS the best way to quell the increase of anti-vaxxers? I don’t know that calling people ‘abusive’ is really going to change anything. I would think most anti-vaxxers would read that, think “well he’s a doctor, he’s in big pharma’s pocket” and move on.

      So regardless of whether we agree or not that not giving vaccines is child abuse, what can we do to encourage more parents to vaccinate? Many don’t trust their doctors, or doctors in general, so I don’t think having doctors pontificate about abuse or herd immunity or anything else is really going to help.

      I’m not sure what the answer is. Getting a few really good, charismatic spokespeople from the ‘natural health’ movement to speak out about how yes, of course you can boost your kid’s immunity through eating kale, but ALSO you should get these vaccines too maybe?

      • Hibbie

        Make ‘em pay. Money should do it.

      • joanne

        Heh. If I were going to leave my dog “intact” I would have had to pay more than $50 to license him with the city. Since I got him neutered my fee is only $6.
        I can see it now: Your kids are unvaccinated then you pay a fee which goes into a pool of money that the babies and the immunosuppressed can dig into if they need it to help pay for bills.

      • david

        “Getting a few really good, charismatic spokespeople from the ‘natural
        health’ movement to speak out about how yes, of course you can boost
        your kid’s immunity through eating kale, but ALSO you should get these
        vaccines too maybe?”

        Why is manipulating someone into a different perception just to match your own perception acceptable? Why must rhetoric and the art of persuasion be used in order to accomplish your goals to get more people to vaccinate?

      • Hibbie

        ‘Cause ‘Murica, that’s why.

      • david

        What does ‘Murica have to do with anything?

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Fight fire with fire?

      • david

        How so?

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        There are some very high profile people speaking out against vaccines. I’m brainstorming ways to combat that.

      • david

        Do you find it acceptable that high profile people speak out against vaccines?

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Acceptable in what sense? I feel like you are getting at something but I can’t quite tell what your point is???

      • david

        My point is in my first post. I am attempting to see how using manipulation is acceptable to change a view. Essentially, I see it as no better than lying…which is why I am asking how it can be justified.

      • Joye77

        You don’t have to lie or manipulate to address facts.

      • david

        “You don’t have to lie or manipulate to address facts.”

        That is correct. However, that is not what allisonjayne is proposing. She is proposing manipulation.

      • Michael Weldon

        Presenting facts as she states isn’t really lying, although I can see how the statement about Kale is pushing it. Slightly change the wording and you two should be in agreement.

      • david

        ‘Charismatic’ people who are in the ‘movement’ people trust to get her point across. The kale line is just icing. This is persuasion/manipulation.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Persuasion and manipulation are not the same thing dude.

        The kale line – there are health care practitioners who support boosting your natural immunity through healthy eating but also support getting vaccines. That’s what I was getting at.

      • david

        I did not claim they were the same thing. If you are forcing me to be technical, you are manipulating by the use of persuasion.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Well, the fact that you said “persuasion/manipulation” leads me to believe you think they are the same.

        Regardless, I don’t need to argue semantics with you. I don’t think having someone well-spoken speaking out in support of something they believe in is manipulation. My goal (if I were in charge of this fictional national program I just invented to increase vax rates) would be to provide information in a way that will reach those who may be on the fence.

      • david

        “I don’t think having someone well-spoken speaking out in support of something they believe in is manipulation.”

        Neither do I….but here we now have a different story from the original. The first line of your original post is:

        “So this raises a good point – what really IS the best way to quell the increase of anti-vaxxers?”

        Then you plan a method to try to achieve this.

        ” Getting a few really good, charismatic spokespeople from the ‘natural health’ movement to speak out about how yes, of course you can boost your kid’s immunity through eating kale, but ALSO you should get these vaccines too maybe?”

        The speaking about what you believe in is not the issue…it is the planned persuasion method to get people to adhere to your views which is manipulation.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Potato-potahto dude. You got me. I’m an evil bitch trying to think of ways to counteract the effects of the McCarthys/Silverstones.

      • david

        Certainly not potato-potahto. If you have facts that are reasonably true, there is no reason, then, to sugar-coat them to get reasonable people to accept them.

        “You got me. I’m an evil bitch trying to think of ways to counteract the effects of the McCarthys/Silverstones.”

        Now you’re just using rhetoric…please, stay reasonable.

      • Michael Weldon

        I don’t see it as all that bad of a thing though. What is the alternative if not done? If anti-vax numbers get high enough there WILL be a real public health risk and the government response at that point is 100x worse than a bit of manipulation today.

      • david

        If it is absolutely true, what you are saying, why would reasonable people object to your prediction?

      • Michael Weldon

        I don’t get your point. Are you agreeing that the risk is worth a little manipulation/lying (my postion) or not? After all we are lied to and manipulated 100′s of times every year, at least in this case it would be very minor and for the literal public good.

      • david

        I do not agree that the ends justify the means. I am asking why reasonable people would reject “truth”?

      • Blueathena623

        Cognitive bias dude

      • Guest

        Because they do not accept the science, they are not reasonable. Reasonable people would not reject “truth,” as you say. People on the fence would probably be reasonable, and therefore would not require the sort of persuasion being debated. “On the fence” implies “willing to listen.”

      • david

        “Because they do not accept the science, they are not reasonable.”

        There are plenty of scientists who think vaccination is dangerous. Who to believe? Because science says something, does not mean it is actually true.

        “Reasonable people would not reject “truth,” as you say.”

        You must justify that you indeed have the truth. Because someone has a differing view than you does not make them unreasonable.

        “People on the fence would probably be reasonable, and therefore would not require the sort of persuasion being debated. “On the fence” implies “willing to listen.”"

        So, you’re going after the low fruit? If you have the absolute right answer, why the need to use manipulation and persuasion? See, the problem is that you cannot prove outright, absolutely, that you have the truth. You may have what you consider “good” evidence but you also dismiss what the evidence “against” vaccinations is. You are claiming those who will not listen are unreasonable, but you seem to be doing exactly that. I find that interesting. If that is not the case, please explain why.

      • Philosophy Prof

        In general, when people say “science” says something they are implying that, in fact, a majority of recognized experts in the field and/or a majority of peer-reviewed studies support that claim. This is the case for vaccines. Nevertheless, many people are suspicious of vaccination. Why is this? Some possibilities spring to me:

        1) They are ignorant of the relevant data. This is easy to fix via making the information more available. However, people have tried this and people frequently remain suspicious even in the face of the data.

        2) They are suspicious of particular studies/experts. In this case, there are a number of options, including discarding those particular studies/experts and relying on others; alternatively, one could seek to understand why they fail to trust those sources and seek to address their concerns. (Perhaps they are not familiar with the credentials of a source, say, and need the information.) Yet, this also often proves ineffective as a technique.

        3) They are suspicious of scientific or medical studies/experts in general. This is much harder to address. There are, of course, two ways in which one could pursue this claim: one is epistemological and one is pragmatic. In an epistemological vein, one could be suspicious (as you seem to be) about whether science actually has knowledge, whether it can reach truth, etc. This is philosophically very interesting and important, clearly. However, few of the objectors to vaccinations (apart from, perhaps, yourself) seem to be concerned on this level. Far more of them seem to be addressing it from a pragmatic standpoint: what will happen if I vaccinate/do not vaccinate? In this case, a pragmatic defense of science seems most reasonable: although it is not perfect, it has thusfar been our best attempt at addressing various problems that humanity faces. Thus if an anti-vaccine person wishes to reject either science as a whole or vaccinations as a whole, then one can reasonable ask what they wish to substitute instead. We have many many years of human history prior to vaccines which will serve as examples of what happens if we do not vaccinate; similarly we have years of examples of what happens if we do. Pragmatically, vaccines have seemed to be effective at lessening the harmful effects of various diseases. If the anti-vaccine people wish to substitute something else, then a discussion of what they wish to substitute and the evidence supporting it is in order.

        Note, however, that this assumes a rational basis for discussion, which also seems not to be the underlying justification frequently. Instead, many of these discussions seem motivated by emotions such as fear. Thus

        4) People see certain conditions on the rise and fear them, looking for a cause. Similarly, people note ill effects and assume that a vaccine must have caused them. Now, as you are clearly versed in logic, you are aware that correlation does not imply causation, meaning that a negative incident after a vaccine does not necessarily mean that the vaccine caused the incident. However, you are also undoubtedly aware that people often make this mistake and may react irrationally out of fear. Therefore, there is an interesting question about how to reach such people. If logical appeals such as those in 1-3 will not reach them, what might? Would there be a way to martial other sorts of factors (or perhaps, better yet, combine them with logical argumentation)?

        As for whether this is ethical, clearly that depends on one’s ethical outlook. You are obviously not a utilitarian, as you do not view the ends as justifying the means. A virtue ethicist could quite clearly use persuasion as a method if the circumstances were dire enough, given that the guiding principle of virtue ethics is (in essence) moderation. He or she is not required to be perfectly truthful in all cases, so a certain amount of spin is likely acceptable, especially in attempting to comply with the virtue of beneficence. Similarly, a Rawlsian would likely be fine with this approach (or even more heavy-handedly simply compelling vaccination), given that they are only concerned with what rational people would agree to from behind a veil of ignorance. As the objections seem to be largely irrational, a Rawlsian will not have to entertain them for long.

        A Kantian perspective is far more interesting, given the absolute character of duty for Kant. On the one hand, lying simply to convince another of a truth (even an important truth) seems likely to run afoul of the first formulation of the categorical imperative. (Although there is a fascinating question as to whether the irrationality of this position undermines this, since Kant is truly only concerned with rational beings.) However, there is something interesting in the second formulation and the question of whether you are respecting people as ends-in-themselves. In some ways, both compelling vaccination and allowing non-compliance seems to treat some members of the community as a means, thus both options seems to be problematic. This is perhaps why few people are hardline Kantians; actual applications of the theory are difficult given the messiness of real-world ethical dilemmas.

        In summary, the majority of ethical theories would likely support allisonjane/blueathena, not you, particularly given the huge logical flaws in the anti-vaccination side of the debate.

      • david

        Which ethical theory(ies) is(are) correct?

      • david

        Hmm..over 2 days later no response. If you cannot produce the answer, which ethical theories are correct, or which one is correct, then no matter how many ethical theories you say “likely” support her position, the point is irrelevant…if there are no correct ethical theories, no matter how many ethical theories there are and “likely” support the position, it’s ultimately meaningless. For, if there is not a correct answer that can support the position, then her position cannot be verified as correct by the “likely” support from these ethical theories. The repetitive use of words “likely” imply the lack of knowing. If something is “likely”, you’ll have to show why. Sorry, you’ve just made a bunch of assertions, nothing more.

      • Henrysmama

        Because not everyone is reasonable. As Blueathena623 has pointed out (which I’ve noticed you’ve pointedly ignored) there is cognitive bias. And for heavens’ sake, this isn’t a Rhetoric 101 class (although I hope this is helping with the paper you’re writing.) A perfectly acceptable way of overcoming cognitive bias is to choose the “messenger” with consideration being made towards the group the message is being directed at. So long as the “messenger” believes the message they’re conveying, there is no lying involved. Take the “Just Say No” campaign from the eighties. Sure it was spearheaded by Nancy Reagan, but there were also celebrities that touted the message. WHY did they have celebrities tout the message? Because that is the most effective way to reach their target audience. It’s not rocket science.

      • david

        “Because not everyone is reasonable.”

        And who judges this?

        “As Blueathena623 has pointed out (which I’ve noticed you’ve pointedly ignored) there is cognitive bias.”

        I ignored no one. Just because I did not answer in the time frame you prefer does not mean I have ignored anything. Assumptions…
        My question is then who judges this cognitive bias?

        “And for heavens’ sake, this isn’t a Rhetoric 101 class (although I hope this is helping with the paper you’re writing.)”

        Where am I using rhetoric? I am asking questions for justification FOR USING RHETORIC.
        More assumptions if I am writing a paper…it is interesting that when asked questions on justification, the argument is brought right back to me…as if I have anything to do with your justifications. Ad hominem is usually reserved for rhetoric, persuasion, and last resorts of having lost an argument.

        “A perfectly acceptable way of overcoming cognitive bias is to choose the
        “messenger” with consideration being made towards the group the message
        is being directed at. So long as the “messenger” believes the message
        they’re conveying, there is no lying involved.”

        You would have to hide your actual intentions of why you are using this messenger from the messenger so that they have absolutely no idea you are trying to use manipulation. If the messenger, who believes the message, agrees to be part of a manipulation,it is still manipulation.

        “Because that is the most effective way to reach their target audience. It’s not rocket science.”

        Right, the groups use manipulation by using appealing and charismatic people to get their message across, no matter if the celebrity believes it or not, they are being used by the group (with their consent or not if the actual goal is hidden) to sway opinion. Manipulation. It is not rocket science.

      • Henrysmama

        I don’t see it as manipulation, I see it as overcoming cognitive bias. If someone is a hard-core anti-vaxxer, they’re not going to trust anyone in the medical community. Period. So you find someone NOT in the medical community to deliver the message. So long as the messenger believes the message they’re conveying, no one is manipulating anybody. Who says a doctor has to be the one to deliver the message in order for it to not be considered manipulation?

      • david

        “I don’t see it as manipulation, I see it as overcoming cognitive bias.”

        You may label it what you want. It does not change the reality. You are not justifying how, why, or who has the cognitive bias…and therefore the justification to overcome said cognitive bias. Who judges that someone has a cognitive bias? I’d like to know.

      • Henrysmama

        Consider Blueathen623′s knock knock joke above as my response to that question.

      • david

        So that makes two of you who can’t or won’t explain your reasoning.

      • Blueathena623

        Don’t bother — he is a classic water is wet wanker, in that he thinks he’s oh so clever in asking someone (you) “so, why do people say that water is wet?” Anyone who knows anything about water understands that water is generally wet, and anyone who doesn’t know needs a hell of a lot more help than some internet comment. So he’ll demand an explanation of why water is wet, as though it’s some horribly clever question, and eventually you’ll write a good, intelligent answer, but you’ll forget some inane, tangential fact, like the osmotic properties of cell walls, and he’ll pounce. Despite the fact that you answered the question, and his “win” about osmotic properties has nooooooothing to do with the argument, he’ll act like he just won the war. And then his keyboard gets all sticky because he has to wank it because he is just . . . just . . .just . . . So . . . SUPERIOR . . . Oh god. That’s all he wants — the feeling that he “won”.
        You can usually tell water is wet wanker by their increasing insistence that they are just asking questions, aren’t they allowed to ask questions, why won’t anyone answer their questions.

      • Henrysmama

        And here I was thinking he was just an insufferable first year college student taking a philosophy 101 course…

      • david

        No matter if I am an insufferable first year college student taking a philosophy 101 course, or not, has absolutely nothing to do with you actually failing to explain yourself. But bringing the argument to my person in lieu of an actual reason is the typical ad hominem response that seems to be scripted to a “T”.

      • david

        Ah yes…I missed this only because you did not respond to me about me, rather an attack on me to another person.

        A classic ad hominem. You fail to explain yourself so you bring the argument to my person. It is like a script. It is amazing.

        Again, the question is, if there is a cognitive bias, who is able to judge this? Claiming cognitive bias for differing opinions is meaningless if you cannot explain why. You claiming that an opponent in an argument is cognitively biased against your view is a bias in itself since there is no unbiased third-party who is accredited to make the decision to see if it is actual reason or cognitive bias. Thus one can claim cognitive bias and be blind to their own cognitive bias. You claim it of others…they claim it of you…who’s right? Unless you can explain it, it is meaningless.

      • Blueathena623

        Cognitive bias

      • david

        So, who says they have cognitive bias?

      • Blueathena623

        Knock knock
        Who’s there?
        Some guy
        Some guy who?
        Some guy who is grasping at straws because if he understands cognitive bias he knows better than to ask if people have it.

      • david

        Instead of condescending, you could reasonably and rationally explain. If one has cognitive bias, who is the one to judge this?
        Who gets to say that someone with a differing view than yours has a cognitive bias?

        Grasping at straws? I am asking questions…in order that someone might be able to justify what they are saying. But I find it even more interesting the harder one doubles down on the ad hominem.

      • Blueathena623

        Eeeeeenteresting, very eeeeenteresting.
        One could argue that you, being ignorant on the concept of cognitive bias, have the responsibility to educate yourself. Horse, water, drinking, what not. Questions are good, but if you refuse to seek the answers, they aren’t much good.
        However, all that being said, since you are lacking a basic background in cognitive bias, and thus potentially lacking a basic background in psychology, I suggest starting there.
        I will give you claps in that most people try to hide their ignorance more, but you are honest about yours, which is admirable. Go young grass hopper, learn!

      • david

        You still have not answered my question…instead you bring the argument to my person…again. Asking questions does not imply that I do not have the knowledge…which is irrelevant to the argument anyways. You still have not justified your answer.

      • Blueathena623

        Nope. If you have the knowledge, you know why your questions are reaching.
        If you don’t have the knowledge, you need to look it up.
        Night night!

      • david

        LOL. That’s just silly. The “you just don’t understand go look it up” defense. I’m not letting you off the hook that easy to try to prove your own point for you. You refuse to say who gets to judge who has the cognitive bias. Perhaps it is you who is cognitively biased.

      • Henrysmama

        She’s saying if you understood the concept, you wouldn’t have asked the question. You cannot continue to debate a concept you do not understand, no matter how philosophically you attempt to frame your argument.

        Basically, your ass just got check mated, hard.

      • david

        Please explain how I got check mated. This will be good.

      • Ana

        I’m catching up on this conversation after a long day, and I think I’m going to start taking a drink every time I see someone say “cognitive bias”. You are rocking it as usual, Blueathena.

      • Warren Pacholzuk

        You are not going to get anywhere with this group. They have said before they have no problem with the gov’t forcing you to have medical treatments against your will. And that the state has the right to take your kids and perform medical treatments on them against you will.
        They are about the most narrow minded bunch of people I have ever seen.

      • whiteroses

        Then why are you still here?

      • david

        This sounds familiar. So far I have seen that that the ends justify the means and manipulation, persuasion, and state coercion are A-OK. I keep asking for justification, but never get any…just arbitrary reasons, but nothing with weight.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        I’m not sure where you are reading that I suggested manipulating or lying?

        I’m talking about having folks that those who have a distrust of western medicine will listen to speak publicly about the facts behind vaccinating.

        I’m talking about ways to address people’s fears and misconceptions in a way that will encourage dialogue.

        Because I don’t think having a doctor call people abusive is really going to help, so I’m thinking about what actually WILL help.

      • david

        I quoted your proposal regarding manipulation above. I didn’t suggest you were lying, I just see it as no better than lying, as I said.

        In order to get people to accept your view, you are suggesting resorting to getting charismatic people (persuasive) who are part of the ‘natural health movement’ (credibility/trust). Your proposal is aimed at persuasion/manipulation. I am trying to find out how you are justifying this approach.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Having someone those with natural health tendencies trust speak out in support of vaccinations is manipulation?

        There are absolutely natural health care practitioners who support both alternative medicines and western medicines and believe the two can compliment each other. I would love to see them speak out publicly in support of vaccines. Having someone well-spoken to do public speaking isn’t manipulation, it’s common sense.

      • david

        “Having someone those with natural health tendencies trust speak out in support of vaccinations is manipulation?”

        In the manner you speak of, yes. You are trying to change their views by making the “facts” more palatable to people who do not accept the “facts”. Thus manipulation.

        “Having someone well-spoken to do public speaking isn’t manipulation, it’s common sense.”

        Well-spoken is not equal to charismatic. Charismatic suggests charming and commanding attraction and loyalty. Thus “getting someone charismatic” to relay your views to a crowd who does not accept your views by someone who can charm these people to accept your views….manipulation and persuasion by definition.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Ok so now I’m just going to assume you are an anti-vaxxer trying to “uncover” a pro-vax plot to convince people to vaccinate.

        You caught us! Us evil mommyish commenters trying to think of ways to convince people to protect their kids!

      • david

        “Ok so now I’m just going to assume you are an anti-vaxxer trying to “uncover” a pro-vax plot to convince people to vaccinate.”

        You can make all of the assumptions you want. Whether or not I am for or against vaccination has nothing to do with you being able to justify your methods to get someone to accept your views.

        “You caught us! Us evil mommyish commenters trying to think of ways to convince people to protect their kids!”

        Again, just as your below comment, more rhetoric…please stay reasonable.

      • Blueathena623

        No, because they are scientifically wrong.

      • david

        If this is your view, then why the need to persuade and manipulate people to agree to your view?

      • Blueathena623

        To stop kids from getting ill or dying.
        Yes, I see you’ve taken a rhetoric class, but I’m right, you’re wrong, have a great day.

      • david

        There are plenty of vaccinated kids falling prey to the illness they were vaccinated against. There are plenty healthy unvaccinated kids. There are plenty of unvaccinated kids dying from illnesses as well as unvaccinated kids not dying from illnesses. All these are true facts.

        Whether or not I have taken a rhetoric class or not has nothing to do with the truth. If the truth actual is that vaccination is a valid measure of protection, why would reasonable people object?

      • Blueathena623

        Lovey, my guess is that you already know about cognitive biases and are hoping that we are all too stupid to know about them so you can make stupid statements and feel superior because you are being oh so logical compared to us with our poor widdle emotions.
        Why would reasonable people object?
        Cognitive bias. That is going to be the answer to about every “logical” question you have. Cognitive bias. Cognitive bias.

      • david

        Actually, to bring the argument to my person (ad hominem) does not justify using manipulation to get people to adhere to your view.

      • Rachel Sea

        It’s not a view, it’s science.

      • david

        Science is a view. Science cannot prove an absolute. Therefore it is only a likely.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        Like, I think about myself – I have said before, when I was pregnant, I wasn’t sure what to do. I trust my doctor and trust medicine, but I had some friends who are anti-vax and they had some convincing things to say. I got a great book from my midwife that t left me saying “ok yes for sure we will vaccinate”, especially after speaking with my doctor about it.

        I went to my doctor and asked her, “So I’m not sure what to do about vaccines” and she was great – she provided me with information, her opinion, etc, all without judgement.

        But if I didn’t trust my doctor? If I had a shitty doctor who shut the conversation down, laughed at me, downplayed my concerns? I would’ve walked away feeling like hey, maybe those anti-vaxxers are right.

      • kittymom

        And I think THAT is something we shouldn’t overlook! I am in healthcare, and the number of times I have seen a doc be condescending or downright offensive makes me sick. And that completely ruins the relationship and drives people into the arms of (perhaps less informed) individuals that are better at communicating.
        I have taken this message to heart, and appreciate the reminder, that being a compassionate, caring physician that is willing to LISTEN to patients is as important as being knowledgeable.

      • Michael Weldon

        Like your suggestion. Would also include people from pretty much every culture and background possible for targeted ads. The non-vax rate (according to the CDC) is btwn 2% and 5% so it may be possible to target them in groups.
        I would also add that while my family has gotten all the required shots, there are a lot of them (far more than when I was a kid) and acknowledging that fact and letting people have some flexibility in delaying some of the shots to make them feel better about it might persuade some to get shots, even if they are delayed. Anytime people are placed into a defensive posture a good outcome is less likely…..

      • CC

        The schedule exists for a reason and I don’t really see why making it “easier” for anti-vaxxers to delay is a good approach…I mean, they should still be bringing their baby in for check-ups anyway. I do think the ad idea is a good one though, I think too many people just aren’t afraid of things like pertussis, measles and polio because we are so disconnected from them–thanks to vaccines!

      • Michael Weldon

        Your post certainly indicates you are a hard liner on this. And that indicates you are a 100% or a 0% type.
        My point is 95% is still 95% better than nothing and getting to 100% isn’t important for this issue as far as public health goes. IMHO keeping the overall anti-vax numbers to a fringe group is what matters and making it easier might help that out.

        And saying a schedule exists for a reason doesn’t mean its a good reason-the Navy made me take all kinds of smallpox and anthrax shots even though the risk was and remains tiny and that a lot of people had adverse reactions to those shots. So I get the anti-vax viewpoint at a gut level even though I know it lacks intellectual foundation.

      • Blueathena623

        But the schedule has been extensively studied. If you delay or get wishy washy on the timing, the vaccines might not be as effective, so then you risk more “my kid got such and such shot and still caught such and such disease”.

      • Michael Weldon

        If we were talking about 30% or more of the population I would agree with you. We are, however, talking about a small % of the 2-5% of the population that doesn’t vax.
        And you can’t tell me (if you go to the CDC site with VAX schedules) that 1000′s of kids died every year from each and every one of the 40+ things that we now vax for. Some of those most certainly fall into a nice to have but very unlikely to need category. For people who view any vax as a poison they are injecting into themselves getting them to have just the most important shots (polio/MMR) is a whole lot better than nothing.

      • Blueathena623

        First of all, you need to look back further and broader in your stats. In many places it’s not 2-5%, it’s 10-15, almost 20%. And it’s a growing percentage. Secondly, we don’t vax against 40 things, which makes me doubt your research. Third, vaccines are developed for a reason. Maybe you don’t think Hep B is worth vaccinating against, but all the dead babies said otherwise.
        If you say “ok, your fears are justified, so you don’t need to get a,b,c vaccines, only x,y,z” that would only give anti – vaxxers more ammo.

      • CC

        I’m going to leave this video explaining herd immunity here for you, too:

        http://youtu.be/f-cKzzPkz2o

      • CC

        Yes, I am a hard liner on this and I don’t think it says a single thing about my personality other than the fact that I care about the health and well-being of my children and also of everyone else in my community. Maybe you don’t live in a city where these nutjobs are running amok, spreading their bullshit and infecting babies with pertussis. There is no room for compromise here.

      • Michael Weldon

        So what do you do when you see someone driving and using a cell phone? Or recreational pilots? Or any number of other things that could directly harm you – and are probably far more likely to harm you or your family?

      • CC

        Nothing, because I am presumably driving? In many places, it’s illegal to text/call and drive and I think in most all places, it would be considered reckless driving if you caused an accident. Of course I am also against texting while driving, but I’m really not sure what parallel you could possibly draw here…

      • Rachel Sea

        The vaccine schedule is based on science. They have picked schedules which confer the highest immunity, and the only thing spacing vaccines out seems to do is increase the chances of a child suffering febrile seizures after vaccination.

      • CC

        Yep, this actually happened to my cousin whose mother wasn’t an anti-vaxxer but just super lazy.

      • CC

        I believe it to be abuse (and also abuse to their entire community, who they are potentially exposing deadly diseases to), but I agree with you that it won’t get us anywhere in a conversation. I honestly don’t think ANYTHING would get you anywhere with them…not to be terribly rude, but I don’t think anti-vaxxers are playing with a full deck. These are people who seriously trust Jenny McCarthy more than their own pediatrician, the AAP and the CDC. They really, truly believe vaccines are some conspiracy to…what, exactly? I’m not even sure.

        Our schools need to seriously crack down on their “religious freedom” and pediatricians need to start turning them away. I really do believe that if anti-vaxxers had to homeschool their children and couldn’t even bring them in for a wellness visit, they would give in and vaccinate. These people are so incredibly lazy that they are entrusting their childrens’ health to fucking GOOGLE, so I don’t think it would be too hard to just make them uncomfortable and corner them into submission. Even if they still opt out of vaccinations, at least they will be out of our schools and out of our pediatricians’ offices. I live in a city with a high anti-vax rate (and home to Moms Against Mercury) so I found a pediatrician who refuses to see unvaccinated patients and I let my old pediatrician know why we were leaving. I think it’s important for us to speak openly about vaccinating our children so anti-vaxxers don’t think choosing not to vaccinate is commonplace…or even acceptable. I have two friends who don’t vaccinate their children, and I had to tell them I wouldn’t be able to see them until my infant has received all of his immunizations. We probably won’t be friends any longer, but oh well.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        I think there are a lot of people who are on the fence that CAN be reached. I was there. It wasn’t laziness or trusting google, it was having very smart friends that I respected telling me some scary stuff (not about autism because I knew that wasn’t true) and me being scared and not knowing where to get information.

      • CC

        What convinced you, then? Definitely not trying to be rude, but I honestly can’t imagine believing a friend over every medical professional in the world…I’m glad you changed your mind, but I still think most anti-vaxxers are extremely unreasonable people by nature.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        It wasn’t that I believed my friend over my doctor, it was just that she put the bug in my ear about it and gave me a bit of pause. She is a highly educated smart woman, and the fact that she doesn’t vaccinate made me question my own intentions.

        So I asked my midwife (I’m in Canada, so our midwives are regulated) and doctor. My midwife gave me a great book that provided all the facts about what is currently in each vaccine given in my country, what the risks actually are, and information about the illnesses that we currently vaccinate against. After reading it, I was convinced that yes, we should vaccinate. I talked to my doctor and she didn’t laugh or shun me, she listened to my fears and concerns and addressed them.

      • CC

        But most anti-vaxxers DON’T listen to their pediatrician, or we wouldn’t have this problem…because except for a select few fringe lunatics, every doctor alive advocates for vaccinations.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        I know all doctors advocate for it, but I also know that some doctors won’t even listen to a patient who even asks the question. And I think that’s shitty, and not helping anything.

        I think you’re right that there are hardcore anti-vax types who won’t listen to anything, and may never be reachable. Fine.

        But I’m more concerned about those like I said who may be on the fence, who just aren’t sure what to think.

      • Michael Weldon

        allisonjayne, I think some people undervalue how offensive condensation can be.

      • CC

        I think the word you’re looking for here is “condescension.” As in, this comment is condescending.

      • whiteroses

        Yes, condensation can be highly offensive, especially when I’ve forgotten to use Frizz-Ease in the morning.

      • Rachel Sea

        Or when someone doesn’t use a coaster.

      • CC

        I agree with you there, a doctor should never make someone feel stupid or embarrassed about any question. But I’m not a doctor, haha.

      • April Showers

        When I was pregnant and choosing a pediatrician, I asked the doctor what his feelings were about vaccinations. He gave us a very thoughtful answer, explaining how in his country (The Phillipines) that he has seen people die because they can’t get the needed vaccines. And how important it is to vaccinate. I was so impressed by him that we didn’t even look for another pediatrician, and we’ve been very happy with him ever since.

      • Guest

        Was it “Your Child’s Best Shot” by any chance? Cause I was definitely anti-vax until I had the chance to chat with some very empathetic and non-judgemental healthcare providers who listened to my concerns and then gave me a copy of that book. I agree that shaming and insulting anti-vaxxers is NOT the way to get them to change their minds, and if anything, will probably just make them less likely to listen. Empathy is key. People need to think about how THEY might like to be convinced of something they don’t believe in.

      • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

        It was something like “answers to your questions”. It was a Canadian book, which was great because I had a hard time finding information on vaccines in Canada. Our schedule is actually pretty different from the US.

        I was never anti-vax, but I had a lot of questions because hey, the schedule IS different from when I was a kid, and there are new things like the chicken pox vax, so I had questions. I am glad that I have a great doctor that I trust and who listens to me.

        I’m a big fan of western medicine, but there are doctors who don’t seem to understand that listening and conveying information is a pretty important part of their job. I don’t need my doctor to be my best friend, but I do think that being able to talk to their patients using lay-language without being a dick should be standard.

        A friend of mine went to one of the top neurologists in our city, and when she went to meet with him about the results of her MRI, he printed out the report and said, “just google it”.

      • MerlePerle

        I had the same thing happen to me! I vaccincated my first without even questioning it, and then met a smart, intelligent fellow student and mother who didn’t vaccinate and that actually made me question my choice. i’m still absolutely pro-vaccinations, but now I’m more aware of possible risks.

      • Tara

        I was similar. When I had my first child I had several anti-vax friends in my ear, sending me all this literature about not vaccinating. And of course it all basically said if you vaccinate your kids THEY WILL DIE!!! But then most of the pro-vaccine stuff I read was basically vaccinate your kids or THEY WILL DIE! It was hard to find a source that didn’t feel super biased. Eventually I was able to sift through all the crazy and choose vaccination, thank goodness.

      • alexandra

        Well that’s probably because to vaccinate is really the only sane option. That’s probably why it seems “biased”. <>

      • Amber Leigh Wood

        I know how you feel, we vaccinated my son but we had difficulty reaching out decision, my partner is not vaccinated and his parents are very strong anti vaccine. But actually with good reason, my partner went into anaphylactic shock with his first set of needles so he hasn’t had any since.
        I understood that they were worried my son would have the same reaction, so we made sure to do it at a Dr office with the Dr being aware of the family history and we promised if he were to have a reaction that we would consider not trying to give him any more.
        But I think that is a different situation to “omg your poisoning my baby/ government grab for money”

      • Dee

        Wow the ignorant comments posted here is crazy. What I don’t understand is why parents who vaccinate worry bout unvaccinated children around their children? Your child is vaccinated right, protected from these diseases right. Also many people keep referring to parents who chose not to vaccinate as abusers or mental cases who are not all there. I think that’s ignorant and childish. The same way you all make a decision for your children based on what you feel is best, so do the parents who wish not to vaccinate. There may be some parents missing a few screws buts that applies to both sides. I think suggesting to force a parent to vaccinate their child by denying medical service is just ridiculous. How would u feel if u were forced to do something u were totally against to your child? You are entitled to your opinion and how u chose to raise your child. And so is every other parent. If that child is healthy, loved and taken care of , who are u or anyone else to say the parents are being abusive. Most if these comments on here are verbally abusive to the nonvaccinating parents. Forcing, threatening, and shaming parents into vaccinating their kids is not the way to go. It just shows lack of compassion, respect and intelligence.

      • CC

        I have a 10 week old infant, so no, he is not vaccinated. My two year old is vaccinated but it’s still possible that he could contract a disease–just much less likely. It seems plainly obvious why I don’t want unvaccinated children around my own.
        The thing is that vaccines are based on science, not “feelings.” You don’t get to FEEL that vaccines cause neurological disorders, because it is patently untrue. People with autism are also extremely offended by this notion, so unless like you want to look like an ableist dickhead, you should probably keep that “feeling” to yourself.
        I don’t think denying medical services is ridiculous at all. I can’t figure out why these people even want to go to the doctor in the first place, since they obviously think they are so much smarter than their doc. Why take your kid to a doctor if you hate/distrust doctors so much?? Logical fallacy.
        And well, I don’t have much respect for someone who risks their child’s life (and my child’s life, and the life of everyone in their community) over some hairbrained idea they read about on the internet.

      • Dee

        Wow Dickhead… Lol you are very childish. We are all entitled to our opinions. You go ahead and continue to carry on like a child. Good luck to you lol.

      • CC

        I didn’t call you a dickhead, I said that you will LOOK like a dickhead if you tell a person with autism that vaccines “caused” it. And if that word is seriously the only one that got through to you…that’s sad, but I can’t say I’m surprised.

      • rockmonster

        And she decided to be condesceding to boot.

      • janey

        I thought she was condensing.

      • nic

        CC made a well thought out response that addressed some of the comments you made, and that is what you decided to take out of it..? You are the one that needs the luck I think.

      • kjmum

        I have actually cared for a 10 week old baby with whooping cough. Turns out a family at her older brothers kindergarten didn’t believe in vaccinations either. Their child had whooping cough, and was infectious before symptomatic. The 10 week old, who was too young to have her vaccinations, died in her mothers arms. That’s why people who are pro vaccination worry about anti-vax people. And why people like me, who have watched children die from complications from measles, whooping cough, and chicken pox in a first world country, will never forgive people like you for allowing these illnesses the opportunity to come back. Why we will never forgive you for putting the weak, the immunocomprimised at risk. Why we will never forgive you for putting our children at risk. Why we will never forgive you for your selfish, uneducated views, and your inability to listen to reason. Come work with me and watch a mothers anguish, a fathers pain and a siblings confusion, and tell me that its worth it. I have placed children in a morgue because of your views. Still feeling condescending Dee?

      • whiteroses

        I have newborns in my family, a grandmother who takes months to get over the common cold, and my son has immunocompromised friends, Those are the people I vaccinate for.

        My autistic featured son was born that way, thank you, so you can take your ableism and shove it up your science- denying backside.

        You can, in fact, do what you’d like with your kids, as long as you’re willing to accept the fact that you’re exposing them to disfigurement, blindness, deafness, brain damage, sterility, and death. You don’t get to make that choice for the people I love who rely on herd immunity and can’t be vaccinated. I’m a pretty rational person, but this pisses me right off.

      • sgrm

        I am confused as to how doctors refusing to treat unvaccinated children is forcing, threatening, or shaming anyone into doing anything.

      • Joye77

        Vaccinating a kid shouldn’t be a choice based on your opinions. Your “choice” to opt out of vaccinating could very well kill another person. Herd immunity is very important to protect infants, elderly, immunocompromised and people who cannot ( not refuse) receive the vaccinations for whatever reason. It is our responsibility to protect others in our society from these diseases. It’s absolutely irresponsible and selfish not to vaccinate your children.

      • ShanLea

        I agree 100%! When my oldest was little, we lived in a small community in Hawaii, and you could only join the most-used daycare referral agency if you vaccinated, and providers would only get listed for referral if they required a vaccination record. 90-95% of parents in the area used this referral service, so you were pretty much guaranteed that if your child was in daycare, they would be safe from vaccine-preventable diseases. Of course, this was 10-12 years ago, so there weren’t as many anti-vaxxers as there are today, but I tell ya-when I signed my youngest up for daycare a few weeks ago, I would have walked right back out the door if they hadn’t required a vaccination report!

      • Lilly

        I know there has been some attempts to make it harder to opt out for schooling purposes and I think those have shown that they work at reducing the non-vax rate a bit.

        http://www.nature.com/news/us-states-make-opting-out-of-vaccinations-harder-1.11548

        research showing higher vax rates with more restrictive opt out options
        http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0749379706004971

        I also think that the tide is slowly turning as more pro-vax people are standing up and saying “vacinating is good for kids & society and the minute risks of negative reactions pales in comparison to the outbreaks we are seeing”.

      • Michael Weldon

        One thing that may or may not have been tried is getting some of the kids that have had measles and their parents who have changed their minds about getting shots into ads.

      • Lilly

        This comes down to the concept of nudging in public policy — a lot of situations you want the public to pick one option over another but outright legislating it won’t work/backlash will be too severe etc. So you make one choice easy/cheaper/free etc and you make the other choice harder/costly/full of red tape etc, most people will make the choice the policy maker wants — yes the hardcore believers can and will choose the unwanted option but generally for most things that minority is small enough not tip the scales.

      • david

        This is nothing more than an appeal to popularity though. Just because a particular amount of people say it is good, does not actually prove it is good. Just logical fallacy.

      • Lilly

        except that is what anti-vaxers have done over the past decade

      • david

        That reasoning is nothing more than the logical fallacy of tu quoque…or the “you too” fallacy. Just because another party may or may not be doing something, does not justify your doing it.

      • Michael Weldon

        david, does it matter? As long as the overall vax numbers stay high enough public health will remain largely unaffected by anti-vax people. The alternative might be having to use the coercive power of the state directly on citizens, and that is a lot worse than playing with logic here and there with some ads.

      • david

        You are suggesting, here, that the ends justify the means either in the case of manipulation or through state coercion. Is this what you are suggesting?

      • Michael Weldon

        Yes. Exactly. With manipulation and persuation rather than coercion.

      • david

        I see. Is there a limit to your view of the ends justify the means? For example, at what point does the end “not” justify the means?

      • Michael Weldon

        Whenever the direct power of the state is brought to bear. Easy question. I don’t think the state should ever force people to do things if its at all possible to avoid that.
        Fudging the facts in ads a bit (which I don’t even see all that much in the original post) is 1000x better than the state not allowing kids into schools or having CPS take kids away or forcing people under threat of violence to get a shot.
        At any rate, time to get some work done. Nice talking with everyone.

      • david

        That is just an arbitrary point. And an arbitrary reason. It is not ultimately justified. Good talking with you.

      • Blueathena623

        Sadly, I thnk the answer will be “way more kids die”

      • SarahJesness

        Eh, I don’t think the movement is going to go away unless the herd immunity falls apart to the point where some of the bad diseases make a comeback.

      • G.S.

        Oh, please, they’d just be all, “They wouldn’t die if they just boiled all their water, washed their hands and ate more fruits and vegetables! All the ones going to hospitals are dying because of MRSA and lazy doctors who just LIE to people!”

    • jeremyaboyl

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      =================> CORT.AS/Fq9d

      ====================================

    • Anna Paula

      So is feeding your child junk and let them watch tv before 2 then… Let’s branch out on the child abuse arena and add letting go to the park alone before the age of 18.

      • Bleu Cheese Bewbs

        Feeding my child junk won’t get your child fat, though.

      • whiteroses

        The stuff that doesn’t affect my child is one thing. I mean, there are parenting decisions that I know are bad or questionable, but they’re for the individual parent to make. Vaccinations, though, effect everyone. When the vaccination rate is lowered, more people contract diseases. When that happens, more people die.

    • WhoremonalCrazyLotusSlugalo

      Let me preface this by saying I have had the worst possible experiences with the world of medicine and, this is no exaggeration. This is a long post of a short and simple version:

      1. Had horrendous abdominal pain, went in for an emergency laparoscopy. The anesthesia did not fully knock me out: just enough to paralyze me but left me completely aware but trapped inside my body. That was fun.
      2. During that same surgery, the doctor misread/misinterpreted/forgot something and instead of doing a laparoSCOPY, he did a laparoTOMY…slicing my abdomen down the middle — 7″ — while I was completely aware of what was going on but unable to stop it. WOOOOO! Yeah. Good times.
      3. My midwife for my first birth was a bitch that swept in and out of the room every few hours hours, to check on things. She left me to push for 4 excruciating, unproductive hours with a novice nurse before sauntering in, “checking on things” and announcing that “it” wasn’t even engaged and I would need an E/C. This is the same midwife that told me she couldn’t concentrate with me screaming so I should settle down.
      4. My grandmother had a broken arm for which her doctor suggested OTC pain meds because she weighed all of 89 lbs at age 80. Doc went on vacation and his sub gave her a time-release prescription pain killer that had not been tested on geriatric patients. She was — ever after, disoriented and she died within a year.

      So… I don’t trust doctors, like AT ALL. With all that being said, I vax’ed for almost everything (I didn’t do the chicken pox thing). What made me do it? Remember my Granny? The one that was given the horrible medication that ultimately killed her? She had polio when she was 12. She made me promise.

      • Rachel Sea

        Please vaccinate against chicken pox. It kills and disables people too. My dad is so brain damaged after contracting it for a second time at age 33 that he doesn’t always know who I am.

      • WhoremonalCrazyLotusSlugalo

        I’ve been on the fence, but I may just do it.

      • Rachel Sea

        That would be wonderful. Chicken pox is rare now because of the vaccine, but it isn’t gone, and severe cases can cause internal lesions which can damage any internal organ. My dad had them on his liver and brain. His liver mostly healed (though he barely survived), but his brain did not so he suffers from temporal lobe epilepsy and a severe memory disorder. A kid I knew growing up got lesions on his heart which nearly killed him, and so damaged it that he later needed a transplant. And then later there is shingles which can cause lifelong neuropathy. My coworker is dealing with that now, and she’s only 42.

      • Chris

        I’m probably ignorant so I apologize is this is dumb but I thought kids were intentionally exposed to chicken pox because it’s harmless as a child but having it early prevents you from getting it as an adult, when it can actually be harmful. Am I totally way off base?

      • koolchicken

        You kind of have it right. Kids are less likely to have severe reactions to chicken pox, and it does get more serious with age. That doesn’t mean that all kids who get it before a certain age will be fine, there are plenty of five year olds that got it and died or suffered greatly.

        There’s also the issue that because of the vaccine chicken pox is becoming rare. So there’s a really good chance many kids will miss the “window” and get it as teens or adults when it’s more serious. There’s also the shingles issue. Once you’ve gotten the chicken pox you’re able to develop shingles cause the virus never leaves your body. I’ve known a lot of people who’ve suffered from shingles and it’s agonizing.

        The main concern I had about it when deciding wether or not to give this vaccine to my son (the only one I questioned) was it wearing off prematurely (it’s happens sporadically with this one) and leaving my son at risk when he was say, college age. So I talked it over with his doctor and she said it’s 100% possible to check to see if it was still working or it he needs a booster as he ages. So I got the vaccine and we’ll double check him as a teen. I’m very happy with our decision.

      • Rachel Sea

        The reason people try to expose their children is not because it’s harmless, but because getting it as an adult is more likely to be devastating. Some children also suffer terribly, with internal lesions, dangerously high fevers, and extensive scarring which can lead to permanent disability or death.

        Immunity does not last a lifetime for everyone, it would seem that the case of chicken pox my dad contracted as a child was not severe enough to confer immunity, and so he got it twice.

      • C.J.

        My godson had a stroke caused from the chicken pox. You can have a stroke up to a year after having the chicken pox.

      • shorty_RN

        Yes yes yes please do it! Chicken pox actually can kill.

      • rockmonster

        Shingles is a douche and watching your dad suffer through is isn’t fun.

    • AussieMum

      Just an FYI, Perth is the capital city, WA is the state.

    • Traci

      Wow! I’m not even sure that I should get on this Thread, because I’m sure I’ll be verbally abused, but it’s very difficult for me to read this one sided conversation that is accusing parents that choose not to vaccination of being child abusers, and say nothing. When my children were small, I did vaccinate because I was never encouraged to educate myself. I just followed along with the other uninformed parents and did my duty, listened to the CDC, big pharma, and stupidly believed that I was doing what was best for my kids. By the way, 30 years ago, up to the age of 5, there were about 10 vaccinations, and now there are upwards to 40. I actually exposed my kids to chicken pox purposely, 2 weeks later they got them, and they LIVED! Now their bodies have natural immunity. Anyway, did it ever occur to you that parents that choose not to vaccinate love their children as much as you? Maybe they have decided that they don’t want chemicals injected into them because they don’t want to risk the side effects. They ARE born with an immune system that IS capable of fighting off diseases that they are exposed to. It’s an amazing thing, that immune system that God gave us. So, if a parent does their homework and decides that vaccinations aren’t for their kids, so be it. I give them kudos for standing up for what they believe. Oh yeah, my chiropractor chose not to vaccinate his kids and they are now very healthy adults who are not vaccinating either, so there ARE professionals out there who won’t be manipulated or pressured to follow the crowd.

      • Fondue

        If kids are born with an immune system capable of fighting off diseases, why did so many kids suffer and/or die from diseases such as polio before a vaccination was available?

      • Blueathena623

        Apparently God didn’t like them enough.

      • Henrysmama

        Well there you go with that crazy logic.

      • Traci

        Why DIDN’T so many kids die? Why do kids who are vaccinated still get whooping cough, measles, mumps? Why didn’t I die as a kid when I contracted mumps, measles?

      • CC

        Because vaccines aren’t always 100% effective, some are as low as 80%. The efficacy of vaccines also relies on herd immunity, which anti-vaxxers have been chipping away at. You will not like the language this guy uses, but PLEASE watch it because he really does an excellent job of explaining herd immunity and why vaccinated people have to worry about anti-vaxxers. Do your homework, for real.

      • guest

        Beautiful-I wish they could cut this down to TV commercial length and broadcast it all day everyday.

      • CC

        ME TOO. How can that annoying voice be so sexy at the same time?? Talk science at me.

      • Traci

        Then explain why so many DIDN’T die?

      • Blueathena623

        No, you explain why so many did. Include small pox and rabies in your answer.

      • Chris

        Moreover, death isn’t the only outcome of not vaccinating. If you won’t address the deaths caused, why don’t you have a stab at the side affects of all those diseases that people had to suffer through? Hey, they might be needless crippled, suffering, in pain, but at least they didn’t have to be forced into those blasted chemical-filled vaccines, eh?
        Although I suppose that wouldn’t help your “statistics”…

      • Blueathena623

        French Revolution possible side effect
        Seriously, Marie Antionette’s sister was supposd to go to France, but she got small pox and died. And then the other sister who was going to go had serious small pox scars. So Marie Antionette went instead.

      • Chris

        Oh, whoops. I meant to address that to Traci’s ridiculousness. I definitely wasn’t opposing your comment.
        I didn’t know that about Marie Antoinette’s sisters, though. How interesting!

      • whiteroses

        And ended up in iron lungs, or permanently disabled? Sure. But it would be far easier for you to Google it. There are things that are a lot worse than death.

      • Joye77

        I was wondering that myself.

      • Blueathena623

        I’m guessing this is someone I know trying to make a joke, since there are so many BINGOs in it, but–
        Chiro’s aren’t medical professionals
        There aren’t 40 things we vaccinate against
        Vaccines 30 years ago were more likely to cause reactions
        Kids are exposed to chemicals all day every day
        Graveyards are full of kids who didn’t fight off those diseases

        Did you hear about the vials of small pox that were misplaced? Do you know what small pox does? Glad you’d be willing to trust your god-given immune system instead of getting a small pox vaccinel if needed.

      • Traci

        Kids are vaccinated multiple times for each disease. Why do newborns get hepatitis vaccines? Drops in their eyes for gonorrhea at birth? Pushing drugs that kids don’t need because big pharma is so good at brainwashing the public.

      • Blueathena623

        Yup, multiple vaccines because vaccines have become even more specialized to inject as little material as possible and still confer immunity. It’s awesome how specific they’ve become. Your kids, they were injected with tons of whole cells. Nowadays, with some vaccines, scientists have isolated the one surface protein needed for the body to create antibodies.
        Hep B at birth because it’s blood born, women don’t always know they have it, it can infect the infant at birth, it has very bad company,citations for infants.
        Stuff in the eyes isn’t a vaccination, you know that, right?
        Glad to know you’re turning down that smallpox vaccine.

      • Korine

        You lose everyone at “big pharma.” That’s not a thing that educated people say.

      • whiteroses

        Hep B is a blood borne pathogen that gets worse as you get older. If your kid gets cut on the playground, then they brush against the scrape of a kid who has Hep B, guess what happens?

      • Henrysmama

        Yeah, you’re missing the obvious: if our immune systems were capable of fighting off any and all diseases, why are there mortality rates associated with the diseases we vaccinate against? If they’re so harmless, why do people DIE from them?

      • RW

        Because God loves them so much he wants them back up in heaven with him – DUH.

      • rockmonster

        *pukes because of glurge*

      • CMJ
      • CMJ

        oh yeah, your chiropractor is not a doctor.

      • Elizabeth Wakefield

        1. Chiropractors are not on the same medical plane as a pediatrician.
        2. Contracting chicken pox as a child is no where near the same as getting the measles, polio, small pox, etc. The diseases are deadly and have vaccinations for a reason.
        3. Just because we did something differently 30 years ago does not mean it was better. There have been significant medical advances made in the past 30 years to better protect people from infectious diseases.
        4. Students do homework, not parents.

      • CC

        Thank you, I am so fucking tired of people talking about “doing their homework.” Hey, guess who else did their homework? YOUR PEDIATRICIAN. FOR MANY YEARS.

      • Traci

        Why, because chiropractors don’t push drugs?

      • CC

        Because they don’t have medical degrees…oof.

      • Chris

        Hah. Bazinga.

      • Elizabeth Wakefield

        They don’t ‘push’ drugs because they cannot prescribe medicine.

      • shorty_RN

        No, because they are Not. Medical. Doctors.

      • Ana

        Ugh, stupid phone. I did not mean to “up” this, but the CC comment below.

      • whiteroses

        What do you call someone who actually graduated from medical school?

        Doctor.

        That is not what a chiro is.

      • brebayVadgeBadge

        No, because they aren’t doctors; they’re the people who couldn’t get into one…even a Caribbean one. Plenty of MDs support alternative medicine in addition to Western medicine (though only a fraction support not vaccinating). The difference is, they did the work first. Also, chiropractors don’t push drugs because it’s against the law for them to do so. Because THEY AREN’T DOCTORS.

      • Traci
      • Rachel Sea

        If you don’t vaccinate, but you allow your kids contact with tap water or unfiltered air, you are a hypocrite.

      • Traci

        I can’t keep my kids from breathing, but I will control what I can. So, you’re perfectly OK with having your choices as a parent taken away? That is exactly what is happening.

      • Blueathena623

        Uh . . . choices are taken away all the time. The government controls the majority of our lives, and you’d be upset if it were otherwise.

      • Rachel Sea

        No, you absolutely can keep your kids, and others, from breathing. All you have to do is fail to vaccinate so that diseases come back and kill tons of people. Breathing problem solved, and then you don’t have to worry about the fact that every single thing your kid ever comes in contact with contains more dangerous chemicals than vaccines.

        And yes, I am totally fine with denying people the right to make stupid choices that kill other peoples’ babies.

      • Simone

        As BlueAthena says – many of our choices are limited or circumscribed by our governments. The areas in which this happens have shifting boundaries and move constantly – when I was a kid it was legal to smoke in the car with your kids, now that choice has been taken away from parents. Don’t pretend that vaccination is the first area of parenting that is subject to governmental regulation, or that this regulation is always a bad thing.

      • whiteroses

        Do what you want with your kids. Nobody’s stopping you. Just keep them the hell away from my loved ones (preferably on a deserted island, because otherwise they might spread what they catch) and it’s all good. But if you’re going to be out in public, don’t act like your kids are the only ones that matter.

      • Gangle

        the preventable diseases that you are totally ok with your kids catching would have lasting health effects on my newborn – possibly death.

      • CC

        Hey, no problem. Just take your family to some remote island so the rest of us don’t have to worry about you infecting our babies.

      • Spongeworthy

        LOL at your chiropractor = a medical professional.

      • Simone

        So if a child who is not vaccinated does die from one of these preventable diseases, did God forget to give that child an amazing immune system? Busy that day? Or maybe the child was not a Christian and deserves to die anyway? I want to know.

      • shorty_RN

        Oh for f*@ks sake, a chiropractor is not a doctor. Why they have suddenly become the leaders of the antivaxx movement, I will never understand.

      • brebayVadgeBadge

        It’s their revenge for getting turned down by every single medical school…

      • RW

        My brother’s wife’s sister’s husband’s uncle’s stepson lived because he wasn’t wearing his seatbelt and was ejected from a car before it went off a cliff, and LIVED! Therefore – seatbelts are dangerous, and this is proof that not wearing them saves lives.

        I can has flawed logic too!

        Seriously though. The chicken pox argument is my favourite. Most of us probably had chicken pox as children and lived to tell the tale, so what’s the big deal, eh? Rates are low, but a couple hundred in North America still die each year from it. No one you know? Great! Here’s a cookie. Since the vaccination became available in 1995, the death rate is ONE THIRD of what it was before.

        Even if I wasn’t worried about my kid dying from it, I remember having chicken pox. If there is a way to prevent my child from having to go through that awful and memorable experience, you’re damned right I’m going to give him the benefit of immunity without torture.

      • david

        “I can has flawed logic too!”

        You are correct, as you commit the fallacy of presumption post hoc ergo propter hoc (false cause fallacy):

        “Since the (chicken pox) vaccination became available in 1995, the death rate is ONE THIRD of what it was before.”

      • Gangle

        Have you seen an infant with whooping cough battling to breathe?? It is horrifying. And a chiropractor is not a doctor.

      • rockmonster

        You do realize that the immune system doesn’t come up with antibodies out of thin air, right?

    • Chantal990

      I live in the Essendon North area and have a baby who is too young for the MMR vax. To say I’m pissed at the parents who haven’t vaccinated their kids is the understatement of the year.

    • Mananieto

      In my country if you don’t vaccinate your kid it’s considered child abuse and they will take away your children. Pediatricians are obliged by law to vaccinate every pacient on schedule and the government will do periodical visitis to check on them. If you take you kid to the Er with a cut they will ask about his tetanus shot, and if they are not vaccinated they will call child services.

      • Rachel Sea

        What country is this? I want to move there.

      • Mananieto

        Its Colombia!!!

      • brebayVadgeBadge

        awkward……

      • Mananieto

        ????????

    • kittymom

      I really enjoy the term hatey-hole. I will use this now when describing my most hated things: spiders, pedophiles, rapists, anti-vaxxers and drunk drivers.

      • Simone

        It’s mean to include spiders in that list of hatey things. Spiders are just a natural and successful creature living out their little spider lives successfully and not being mean or picking on spiders for mean reasons. Spiders are okay, they are different from pedophiles and drunk drivers.

    • Simone

      I don’t blindly trust everything that modern western biomedicine tells me. I suspect that this type of medicine achieved its current dominance primarily through being politically organised, rather than being better than any other kind of medicine (now considered ‘alternative’). I always ask further questions and do my own research when being prescribed drugs. And I don’t think current vaccinations are perfect or fool-proof, nor do I believe they were always developed in totally ethical ways.
      I think they’re the best we have at the moment and that the risks of not using them far, far outweigh the risks of using them. Most parents who vaccinate are hardly the brainless sheeplike dupes that anti-vaxxers like to claim they are.

      • Joye77

        Nope, pro vaccinators are responsible parents that don’t want to watch our children suffer and die of preventable illnesses.

    • Warren Pacholzuk

      Again, not your kid, so shut the fuck up.

      • whiteroses

        Your rights end when they infringe on other people’s, sunshine.

        And because I know how you’ll react to me daring to disagree with you- blah blah blah whiny bitches blah blah blah fat blah blah blah you’re all morons blah blah blah big government blah blah blah blah blah- I’ll just end by asking you the same question I’ve been asking, one that you never seem to be able to answer for some reason. Why are you still here? I mean, it seems like you enjoy this for some reason, though I can’t for the life of me think why.

      • brebayVadgeBadge

        His mom potty-trained him with too firm a hand, and now he can only get off by women getting ticked at him and telling him what an ignoramus he’s being. A long-time troll is still a troll…

      • Johnstone

        Lack of vaccinations affect other children in that they can infect them with those illnesses. So it’s not just “their kid”. Honestly, Warren, do you even think before you post?

      • Warren Pacholzuk

        Again, it is just their kid.
        Have the bunch of you ever read your comments collectively, the border on being supportive of Communism?

      • Johnstone

        You’re really failing to understand the basics of vaccination.

      • Warren Pacholzuk

        No, no I don’t. But considering it is our trusted family doctor’s advice, sucks to be the rest of the herd. My body my rules. Our doctor does not advise the flu shot, or chicken pox vaccine, and I will take his advice over anyone’s, and certainly not go against it because you are worried about the herd.
        Besides, the herd could use a little thinning from time to time.

      • Gangle

        My baby is too young to be vaccinated yet. So if someone elses unvaccinated child were to come in contact with her she is in quite a bit of danger. And because she is a newborn any of these preventable infections are incredibly dangerous to her. So yes, it IS my kid, and I won’t shut the fuck up.

    • shorty_RN

      The anit-vaxxers are coming. I feel it.

    • jeannwhitefield

      s­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ᴀ­­­­­­­­­r­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ ᴡor­­­­­­­­­king ᴀ­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ home ᴡit­­­­­­­­­h Google! It­­­­­­­­­’s­­­­­­­­­ by-fᴀ­­­­­­­­­r­­­­­­­­­ t­­­­­­­­­he bes­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ job I’ve hᴀ­­­­­­­­­d. Lᴀ­­­­­­­­­s­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ ᴡednes­­­­­­­­­dᴀ­­­­­­­­­y I got­­­­­­­­­ ᴀ­­­­­­­­­ br­­­­­­­­­ᴀ­­­­­­­­­nd neᴡ BMᴡ s­­­­­­­­­ince get­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ing ᴀ­­­­­­­­­ check for­­­­­­­­­ $6474 t­­­­­­­­­his­­­­­­­­­ – 4 ᴡeeks­­­­­­­­­ pᴀ­­­­­­­­­s­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­. I begᴀ­­­­­­­­­n t­­­­­­­­­his­­­­­­­­­ 8-mont­­­­­­­­­hs­­­­­­­­­ ᴀ­­­­­­­­­go ᴀ­­­­­­­­­nd immediᴀ­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ely ᴡᴀ­­­­­­­­­s­­­­­­­­­ br­­­­­­­­­inging home ᴀ­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ leᴀ­­­­­­­­­s­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ $77 per­­­­­­­­­ hour­­­­­­­­­. I ᴡor­­­­­­­­­k t­­­­­­­­­hr­­­­­­­­­ough t­­­­­­­­­his­­­­­­­­­ link, go? t­­­­­­­­­o t­­­­­­­­­ech t­­­­­­­­­ᴀ­­­­­­­­­b for­­­­­­­­­ ᴡor­­­­­­­­­k det­­­­­­­­­ᴀ­­­­­­­­­il

      >>>>>>>>>> Cort.As/Ft4e

      ==============================

    • evileliteliberal

      I just came across a FB share post from an acquaintance that claimed that vaccines were causing the new rise in diseases like measles. That’s right, the new(?) argument now is: yes, they were eradicated (by sanitation???) and now they are coming back because of VACCINES! Omg, the rage headache. I clicked so I could see what they were using as evidence and of course all the links were just a gigantic rabbit hole of say-nothing articles “based” on “studies.”

      • Joye77

        Oh lord. That is one I never saw coming. Diseases coming back because of.. vaccines? Oh my, these people are really grasping at straws to come up with something.

    • titchyanon

      I know this is a little off topic, but Perth is the capital of Western Australia, not a Western Australian state. It’s the most isolated capital city in the world :)

    • nancysvalenzuela

      S­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­a­­­­­­­­­r­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ w­­­­­­­­­o­­­­­­­­­rk­­­­­­­­­in­­­­­­­­­g a­­­­­­­­­t­­­­­­­­­ ho­­­­­­­­­m­­­­­­­­­e w­­­­­­­­­it­­­­­­­­­h G­­­­­­­­­oo­­­­­­­­­gl­­­­­­­­­e! It­­­­­­­­­’s by-­­­­­­­­­far­­­­­­­­­ the­­­­­­­­­ best­­­­­­­­­ j­­­­­­­­­ob­­­­­­­­­ I’v­­­­­­­­­e ha­­­­­­­­­d­­­­­­­­­. ­­­­­­­­­Last­­­­­­­­­ Thurs­­­­­­­­­day­­­­­­­­­ I­­­­­­­­­ go­­­­­­­­­t ­­­­­­­­­a ­­­­­­­­­bran­­­­­­­­­d­­­­­­­­­ n­­­­­­­­­ew ­­­­­­­­­BM­­­­­­­­­W since­­­­­­­­­ ­­­­­­­­­getti­­­­­­­­­ng­­­­­­­­­ a­­­­­­­­­ che­­­­­­­­­ck­­­­­­­­­ for­­­­­­­­­ ­­­­­­­­­$­­­­­­­­­6­­­­­­­­­474­­­­­­­­­ thi­­­­­­­­­s­­­­­­­­­ – ­­­­­­­­­4­­­­­­­­­ wee­­­­­­­­­ks p­­­­­­­­­ast­­­­­­­­­. I­­­­­­­­­ began­­­­­­­­­ this­­­­­­­­­ 8-months­­­­­­­­­ ago­­­­­­­­­ and­­­­­­­­­ immediately­­­­­­­­­ was­­­­­­­­ ­bringing­­­­­­­­­ home­­­­­­­­­ at­­­­­­­­­ least­­­­­­­­­ ­­­­­­­­­$­­­­­­­­­7­­­­­­­­­7­­­­­­­­­ pe­­­­­­­­­r ho­­­­­­­­­ur­­­­­­­­­. I­­­­­­­­­ work­­­­­­­­­ through­­­­­­­­­ this­­­­­­ ­­ link­­­­­­­­­, g­­­­­­­­­o? t­­­­­­­­­o tech­­­­­­­­­ tab­­­­­­­­­ for­­­­­­­­­ work­­­­­­­­­ detail,,,,,,,

      >>>>>>>> http://xurl.es/abg8m

      ==================================

    • All_taken

      Don’t be so quick to hate. You alienate people by coming across intolerant and close minded. There is plenty of research out there…
      http://ireport.cnn.com/docs/DOC-1164794

    • Pingback: California Is Bringing Measles Back By Not Vaccinating Their Children

    • http://asthekiteflies.com Kite

      Well, in Australia, we have, or had, the AVN, the “Australian Vaccination Network”, now required to be the “Australian Vaccination-Skeptics Network” to be more accurately represented, with some pretty rabid and ridiculous information being spread by one Meryl Dorey. It’s really got doctors’ backs up, especially with the consequences plain in some areas. My partner had a brush with her at the law office after Meryl assisted a woman to flee hospital whose kid badly needed medical care and vaccinations. Meryl made very little sense on the phone. Crazy times.

    • Syla

      I wish we couldn’t vaccinate my two year old. He has had two horrific reactions to several of the vaccines and your pediatritian told us another episode would kill him (yes we got a second, third, etc. advice from several very pro-vaccine doctors) What I didn’t know was that I had the same reactions when I was a child. I just thought my parents were anti-vaxxers. I’m terrified to bring him in public since I found out our county in FL has a very high rate of people not vaccinating. It scares me. My daughter who is none is vaccinated thank goodness, but still I’m afraid to bring her to the store. I shouldn’t have to feel terrified to bring my kids to the park because anti-vaxxers want to be nuts and put MY children at risk. You want your kids to die? That’s sad, but you putting MY kids at risk ticks me off. If my kids get something that is covered by vaccines and I find out its because they came into contact with a child who isn’t vaccinated by their parents choice, I will make sure their lives become hell. I have already tried talking to the local newspapers, goverment agencies, etc. about this but nobody wants to hear it. I find that sad.

      • Syla

        Could vaccinate my two year old* sorry autocorrect on my phone is going nuts