• Tue, Mar 11 - 10:00 am ET

I Would Rather My Kids F Like (Responsible) Bunnies Than Have A ‘Chaste Courtship’ Like The Duggars

1380340_10153367787515521_316750568_nLet’s get this out of the way first, I do not want my kids telling me they are having sex. OK, I take that back. I want to know if they are sexually active, I want to have all the important talks with them about responsibility and consent and staying healthy and birth control and how to handle their own sexual lives as responsible, decent, kind humans. But other than that, I do not wanna know. Their sex lives are not my business. As long as they are being responsible and consensual and healthy. And more than that I would never tell them I want them to enter into a chaste courtship, just like I wouldn’t tell them they should go bone a mess of people before marriage. But I’d be lying if I said that the whole idea of a chaste courtship really creeps me out. I would (secretly) prefer that they have a whole lot of (healthy, safe, happy, consensual) sex before marriage. If they even decide to get married.

Here’s how I feel about it. Sex is a beautiful, lovely, wondrous thing. It’s fun, and it’s great as long as you are being healthy, safe, happy and consensual about it. I don’t believe in saving yourself for marriage, because in my opinion that is just not necessary. It’s far more important that my kids are happy in their careers before marriage. Or that they have traveled a lot. Or that they know how to cook a decent meal and wash their laundry and write a heartfelt thank you note. My own value system dictates that I don’t judge people on how much sex they have had in their lives and who with. As long as no one got hurt, I don’t care, and why would I treat my kids any differently?

From Babble:

In a culture where the experimental rowdiness of Girls seems like the norm, this chaste courtship business sounds like something from the dark ages. But it’s not.

I had a chaste courtship. Well, maybe there was a bit more hugging and kissing than Jessa and Ben have decided to pursue, but it was chaste. And I expect this of my kids. I’m not repressing them. I’m freeing them. I have sons who need to learn restraint and respect. I have daughters who will be empowered by abstinence because they can simply sidestep the issues, pressures, problems, and pitfalls of promiscuity.

 

You can teach your boys restraint and respect in ways other than telling them not to have sex with people. You can teach your daughter to be empowered by things other than abstinence. I can’t even wrap my heads around these concepts because to me they just sound like good old fashioned slut shaming done up in the guise of GOOD PARENTING. There is nothing wrong with sex. There is nothing wrong with having sex, good sex, bad sex, long term relationship sex and fleeting, one night stand sex. Ideally, I want my kids to love or at least care deeply about the people they are boning, but if they don’t? Then as long as they are happy, safe and consensual I just don’t care. It’s not my business. It won’t make them less in my eyes, as long as no one gets hurt.

I want my kids to become sexually active when they are mature enough to be, when they can handle the chance of unwanted pregnancies, and when they can navigate the emotional territory that comes with having sex. But I never want them to feel like they are less than worthy humans if they aren’t chaste. I would never dictate to them how they should live their sexual lives, because I am not them, I am not their heart, their mind, their soul or their bodies.

I can give them advice. I can educate them. I can tell them how I feel about sex, and how to be responsible about sex, and how I see nothing wrong with having sex before marriage and how if they want to save themselves before marriage I am fine with that too. But to me there are far bigger things to worry about accomplishing before you get married than remaining chaste. I would rather my kids know how to pay their heating bills.

(Image:Facebook)

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  • Megan Zander

    When I was in college my mom told me how she thought it would be unwise to marry someone without sleeping with them first. (she knew I was a far cry from virginal by this time) Her point was a valid one I think, sexual attraction is a big part of marriage and it would suck to legally bind yourself to someone just to find out you don’t jive between the sheets. I respect the Duggars religious beliefs, but I cringe to think they may end up in up satisfied marriages they will never leave.

    • JLH1986

      My mom openly lamented her “low number” before marriage (she met and married my dad by 20) and flat out told me to be safe, respect myself and others but to do what I wanted as long as I understood, babies and STDs. While I hardly racked up the numbers, I don’t regret the sex I’ve had. I know what good sex is, what bad sex is, how to say no to sex and not make it weird, how to initiate sex etc. etc. Sex IS a beautiful amazing wonderful thing, as long as everyone is on the same page, being safe and consenting.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      i love this!
      my mam was the same when i was lamenting a bad breakup after three years (classy guy dumped me as he was having sex with someone else)

      she said you’re young, you’re beautiful, you’ve a gorgeous figure, throw on a dress, get the girls and have fun!
      do whatever and whoever you want as long as you are safe!

      i didn’t go too mad lol but i did take her advice and had a lot of fun before i settled down with my fella. =)

    • meteor_echo

      I don’t think that one has to have a “high number” to understand all of that. My number is 4 so far (26 years old, three were/are long-term relationships, one person was a rapist), and I’ve had quite enough time to figure out what I want, don’t want, like and dislike.

    • JLH1986

      Well no, but I think in some cases that’s true. My mom for example had been with only2 people before dad, they were both in high school. I don’t think she really got a chance to figure that out. I’m sure 25+ years of marriage figured that out, but she to this day says she regrets that she wasn’t more “available” she feels like she missed out. Now whether that’s on sex or on dating or whatever I’m not sure. But she made it clear she did not want me marrying my high school sweetheart (not that I had one but…you know)

    • moonie27

      It depends on the quality of the people and how much exploration you find yourself able to do with them.

    • keelhaulrose

      My mom was in the same “test the goods” camp.
      She also told me don’t fall for the first guy or girl to give me a good orgasm because it shouldn’t be about how good he/she is in bed, but sometimes it’s easy to mistake sexual sparks for something deeper.

  • Bethany Ramos

    I was definitely raised in the chaste courtship realm because I think it made it easier for my parents to “keep control” over me. So… I will just lay all of my cards on the table. I lost my virginity at 24 with my current husband, but it was when we were living together before we were married. That doesn’t mean I was an angel in all of the physical interactions that I had before then, just not the V Card.

    I don’t know what I would do differently if I had to go back in time because I’m very happy with where I am at with my husband right now. But I absolutely HATE the idea of kids being brainwashed to think that they should only be looking for one special person and potentially miss out on the dating world. My husband got married to his high school girlfriend because of this religious pressure, and they are obviously divorced now. Lucky me! :-)

    • Brittany Anne

      I was raised in a similar environment. I’ve only ever had sex with my husband, but we started having sex maybe six months after we started dating, well before we were married. And boy, when my parents found out it was a mess. They were absolutely convinced that no one would ever want to marry me because someone had seen my vagina.

      It’s weird–I know that my parents were just trying to protect me, but they were so hung up on my virginity as my only source of worth for a potential husband that they made me feel much worse about myself and much more objectified than any guy I ever dated.

    • Kay_Sue

      I feel your last paragraph so hard. It’s a double-edged sword.

    • Bethany Ramos

      Great point – like I said, I’m pretty happy about it all, but I had to figure out so much for myself. And JESUS CHRIST, sex with one person you live with/date?? People need to lay off already. ;)

    • Brittany Anne

      Having sex before marriage was one of the best things I ever did for myself. My then-boyfriend/now-husband basically had to teach me how to have sex. Thankfully, he is patient and loving, and we’re pretty compatible in regards to sex and life in general, so we have a great sex life now.

    • Crusty (I HATE TAXES) Socks

      O_o Beth, you homewrecker!!!

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter
    • Bethany Ramos

      So much this! Both things were true of me… :/

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      hahahahahhahahah #bethanyvirginbolthole

    • Bethany Ramos

      Don’t lay a finger on my #bogrolls!

    • CMJ

      YES.

    • Valerie

      Rollin with the homies

    • brebay

      Oh god, I was so obsessed with the WHOLE soundtrack!

    • Kendra

      I don’t plan to really advise my children in any direction because of this. The only thing I really want to teach is that I do think virginity is very important and shouldn’t be thrown away to just anyone. I married my high school sweetheart, so even though we have only been with one another, I don’t think that will necessarily be the right path for my kids. I just want them to be safe and happy. I hope she won’t be “promiscuous” because I don’t really agree with that sort of behavior. But I would rather her be promiscuous and me be aware and encourage safety, than for her to do that behind my back because she feels she can’t talk to me.

    • moonie27

      promiscuity is fun. :)
      It’s just important to be able to balance it with your life goals and not let it interfere with being able to have a relationship.

    • Kelly

      At the same time, I’ve known rape victims who went through hell in recovery because they were taught that virginity is so important and theirs went to a rapist.

      Equating sex with self worth or value in any way is just a bad idea.

  • Lilly

    when they talk about waiting until their wedding day to kiss this is always what I think of:
    https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/5520534272/hED4FBFBF/

    • MegzWray

      He’s eating her face!!!

    • Crusty (I HATE TAXES) Socks

      Sucking out life force!!!

    • missiemeghan

      MY EYES!! MY EYES!!

    • Sara610

      What the hell was that?!

    • Lilly
    • Sara610

      Ooooooh. God, that GIF makes me uncomfortable. It’s just….. gross. Gross and creepy.

    • Lilly

      since it is forever burned into my brain I thought I would inflict it on others

    • CMP414

      It was way worse when you actually watched the entire episode! Like a train wreck you can’t stop staring at

    • Williwaw

      I just wouldn’t want my first kiss to have been in front of 100 people. Also, I don’t like having my soul sucked out during kissing.

    • CMP414

      Right! Even their guests were mocking them if I recall correctly. They totally need to make a series out of that show

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      *pours bleach into eyes*

      that’s how I look eating a pulled pork wrap!!

    • SmrtGrl86

      Were these people dementors in a past life? Pretty sure he’s either sucking her soul out or he’s hungry and looking for a treat between her molars…blech

    • keelhaulrose

      I want look away, but it’s mesmerizing. How can anyone find that to the exciting buildup of the first kiss?
      If the kiss was that bed I’m sure the wedding night would have been popcorn-worthy (if they lasted long enough to make popcorn).

    • Valerie

      I love how even that old-timer is like “face palm”.

    • brebay

      I think, If I remember right, that was the father of the groom?

    • Jessie

      Oh, sweet Thanatos, WHERE IS MY EYE BLEACH?! Gods above and below, that is horrifying.

    • brebay

      If this is the first kiss, can you even imagine the first….he’ll suck out her spleen!

  • MegzWray

    I was the oldest girl out of 5 kids and I think it freaked my mom out to imagine her daughter having sexual relations of any kind. So she accused, berated and basically called me a whore for having a boyfriend. We had been dating for almost 2 years in HS and we were both virgins. She would say things like, “We better not be the God Damn house with a pregnant cheerleader!” I was mortified. And obviously, wouldn’t go to her with any questions I had about sex. I seriously was very confused, awkward and naive about a lot of things. I put myself on birth control in college (thank you, Planned Parenthood) and hope that I can do a much better job of having open dialogue with my daughter than my mom did with me.

    • Valerie

      Sounds a lot like how my parents were when I was a teen. I will be NOTHING like that with my kids. It did far more harm than good.

  • pixie

    I respect people who want to save themselves for marriage. When I was a young teen, I thought I wanted to be chaste until marriage…and then I realized that wasn’t for me.

    I think the best thing is to give the kids information on birth control and all that, teach them to be healthy, safe, and consensual. If they want to wait, good for them. If they don’t, also good for them. There’s other things that are more important, like being able to cook and clean for themselves, but prohibiting sex and not educating kids on it is doing them a great disservice (plus kids like to do what they’re not supposed to).

    I had a religion teacher in high school, who was a good teacher, but discouraged cohabitation before marriage. I feel similarly about being against cohabitation as I do about forcing chaste relationships. I don’t know if I could marry someone without ever having lived with them before hand (ok, I’ve never actually lived-lived with my boyfriend, but I have spent enough lengthy periods of time with him at his apartment when he was living away from home and at his house while his parents are away that I know we work together). Some couples can do it, I’m sure, it’s just not me. My religion teacher likened it to test driving a car, and said that people aren’t cars you can test drive and give up if you don’t like and that if you really love someone, you’ll do anything to make it work. Like I said, he was a good teacher, this is just the one area I really disagreed with on him (though never said anything out loud in class about it). At least he didn’t say it was a woman’s job to make things work and did emphasize equality between both partners, so I guess there’s that?

    • Larkin

      LOL, if you can’t give up on a romantic relationship because it doesn’t work, why bother dating at all? Might as well just go back to blindly arrange marriages and be done with it.

    • pixie

      lol exactly.

    • Angela

      I don’t disrespect the people who choose to remain chaste but I have no respect for the ideology behind it. People don’t just decide on chastity because they think it sounds like fun or it has so much appeal on its own. They are trusting what their parents and/or clergy have promised them about how it will make their marriage so much stronger, their intimate lives so much better, etc. I bought into this and found out pretty much immediately that this wasn’t the case. I don’t bash people who wait but I do worry that they will regret it (I did).

    • pixie

      For me, it wasn’t anything to do with what I was told by parents or clergy (my parents never took me to church nor raised me in a religious house…I’m not even baptized), I just somehow got it in my head that that’s what I wanted and until I started dating my boyfriend at nearly 16, I wasn’t really that interested in my own sexuality. And I am VERY glad that I did have sex with him. We waited a long while (a year and a half…both of us were virgins), but I never regretted the wait or the sex. Most definitely not the sex. I know for a fact that we wouldn’t have lasted 7 1/2 years if we weren’t intimate. Keeping him was never my reason for sleeping with him, but it has been a great added bonus.

      I agree, though, I don’t respect the ideology of pressure by clergy/parents/etc, but if someone wants to wait because they’re unsure of how comfortable they are in a relationship or haven’t yet discovered an interest in their sexuality, I can respect that.

    • Angela

      Totally agree about not rushing into sex, especially when you’re young. I absolutely intend to teach my kids to wait until they (and their partner) are ready, but not necessarily until marriage.

    • Kelly

      I’ve never understood the whole, “I respect people for waiting to have sex.” bit. I hear that a lot and it always makes me laugh. What is there to respect? Saying that makes me think the person talking sees having sex as disrespectful or less respectful and I’ve never felt that way.

      To me, it’s like saying, “I respect people for whistling while they take a dump.” It’s just a personal preference and a silly thing to respect.

    • pixie

      Well, I respect their decision. It doesn’t affect me or anyone else in a negative way. If someone decides to whistle while they dump, I can respect that decision, too.

      I guess what I’m saying is that if someone told me they wanted to wait, I would respect their choice and free will to do so, even if it’s not something I chose for myself. What I wouldn’t respect is someone who told me they are waiting because it’s what God wants and everyone else should wait too or else they’re going to hell. I believe in bodily autonomy and in people choosing what they think is best for themselves, especially when it comes to sex.

    • Kelly

      To me, there’s a difference between respecting someone’s decision and respecting an action.

      I respect people’s choices but I don’t understand how the action of having sex or not having sex earns my respect in any way. That’s why I think it’s silly and equate it to respecting someone for whistling while they poo.

    • pixie

      That’s why I clarified that I respect their decision and their choice. I understand what you’re saying, and it’s the decision I respect. I didn’t word it as such in my original comment, but that is what I meant.

  • Tea

    One of my cousins never had an un-chaperoned date with her husband until their wedding night. She had never been alone, unattended with this man for more than a few minutes until they married, and that’s terrifying.

    I chose not to lose my virginity until after my commitment ceremony, but we were extremely honest and up front about each others sexual needs, drives, kinks, ect long before then. I just watched a friend’s marriage go down in flames because one party discovered they were asexual, and they had waited until marriage to be open about or try anything, they weren’t even aware of each other’s sex drives or interests. I think spouse-guy and I got lucky that we were compatible, and I’m still not sure if I recommend waiting for anyone.

    But if you do wait, make sure you learn about all their weird kinks before you get married.

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      This is the title of your forthcoming parenting book: But if you do wait, make sure you learn about all their weird kinks before you get married.

      brb preordering on amazon

    • Tea

      I’ve seriously considered writing “Dating for the Kinky Christian,” But then my editor just shakes his head at me and tells me to stick to YA and snark-ass memoirs.

    • 1Hell

      I’d buy it. Seriously, in college my friend confided in me that one of the reasons she broke up with her boyfriend was that he wanted to kiss while laying horizontally. I didn’t have the heart to tell her I was feeling like a slut right then.

      I have a feeling that all my turn ons are a sin. Christian sex isn’t supposed to be how I want it, because that’s supposedly “degrading.”

    • Tea

      Also, spouse guy says that books needs this chapter: So you found My Little Pony Porn on your son’s computer.

    • meteor_echo

      Related: http://www.fmylife.com/kids/21082455

      Saw your comment and gigglesnorted there.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      It’s amazing what people will keep from my partner.
      I made no secret of the fact that I like girls as well as boys, and my partner is comfortable with it.
      He knows I’ve dated and slept with women, and we can have a decent conversation about which female celeb we’d like to spend a night with (Noomi Rapace for me hell yeah!)

    • tSubh Dearg

      Both myself and my Beau are both bisexual and we have great conversations about which celebrities, male & female, we would spend the night with. The Gyllenhaal clan is pretty high on the list. :D

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      O god the things I’d do to that man haha!!
      my biggest girl crush would have to be Scarlett Duggan, japanese-irish model!
      *Purr*

    • NotTakenNotAvailable

      It took me being in a relationship for a number of years before I realized I was effectively asexual (not sure if it counts that I like orgasms but not physical intimacy?). Thankfully, we weren’t married, but we were close enough under the fuzzy definitions of Colorado’s common laws that I wouldn’t have been entirely surprised if I’d suddenly gotten an order to begin paying alimony. So my two lessons to my hopefully nonexistent children would be 1) don’t cohabitate, at least not in Colorado, but 2) try it before you buy it regardless!

  • Momma425

    Eve, I’m with you- I don’t want to think about my daughter having sex ever because gross. Same goes for my parents- I prefer to live my life under the guise that my siblings and I were dropped off on the front porch by the stork.

    I grew up in a home where my parents pretty much preached never to have sex until marriage. They refused to budge, insisted they waited until marriage- but they didn’t understand that by behaving this way, they made it completely unsafe for me to talk to them about sex as a teenager. So I ended up getting my sexual advice from the things around me- my peers, Cosmo, the Internet (which omg, is waaaaaay different today than when I was growing up). Sometimes, I wish my parents had been able to talk to me about sex other than, “never do that,” because I wonder if I would have made the same choices in boyfriends and had as much sex I regretted.

    To make matters worse, with my parents, I found out that they had not in fact been virgins before their wedding night AND that dad had an affair during their marriage. I was 15 when I learned all of this, and I felt like I could never trust them, saw my parents as huge hypocrites, and it really created some big personal issues about the way I perceive men. I mean, if a girl can’t trust her own father, what hope do other boys out there have. I lashed out- of course- by having a LOT of sex. And while it was all consensual sex- looking back, I regret plenty of it, especially the encounters with the guys I can’t remember the names of. Or the encounters I didn’t insist on protection, because I read in Cosmo that “guys hate condoms.” Or the encounters that took place in the high school bathroom, because nothing says, “I respect myself” better than a quickie while awkwardly bending over a toilet.

    I hope that despite feeling like eew talking to my daughter about sex, I can be there for her in the way I needed someone there for me- to be honest and give me advice and information and to be a model of healthy sex. Because if not- she will be forced to look elsewhere. In fact, she still might get information from peers and the Internet and magazines, and whatever else is out there when she is older.

    That being said- if my daughter chooses to go the way of the Duggars, and remain abstinent until marriage or hell, forever and always- I would support her with that choice too as long as it makes her happy and is what she wants.

  • That_Darn_Kat

    My mom recommended I sleep with someone before marrying them. Honestly, this is some of the best advice she ever gave me. When I was 18, I got engaged (I was young and stupid at the time). I later found out that my fiance had lied and had never actually had sex before. We did eventually have sex, and my GOD it was horrible. We wound up going our separate ways (for various reasons), and it’s a good thing, because the man I did wind up marrying and I have an amazing sex life and just connect in bed (and other areas, obviously).

  • http://workoutfine.com/ Vero

    So.much.denim.

  • koreander

    I love this article. Someone should make a PSA out of this and have doctors hand it out to parents whose children are about to hit puberty. If they get weird about it because of religion, wait a few years and slip the kid a copy of Tea’s book.

  • Kay_Sue

    I really feel this. I came from a minimally chaste courtship background–my parents didn’t supervise every date, but I was heavily encouraged to remain chaste, with an emphasis on modesty, respect for yourself, maintaining your self-worth, etc.

    All I wound up with was a bunch of issues that I eventually worked out in therapy. Any sex for the longest time left me feeling guilty and dirty. It wasn’t healthy, and a lot of my self-worth was tied into my perception of my reputation and my chastity. When I did lose my “V-card” as a teen, I also felt like a failure and like I had let everyone down that had preached those messages to me, from my youth pastor to my pastor to my parents to my grandparents to…everyone (I’m a perfectionist–go big or go home). It was a terrible time and it really only continued a spiral that led me to eventually attempt suicide right before graduation. I felt so incredibly worthless, and I didn’t see how anyone else could love me. (I am also a bit dramatic, if you can’t tell.)

    Now, I am not saying that is the experience of everyone that has lived through that indoctrination–it’s really not. I don’t even know how prominent it is, so I can’t even say a lot of other people feel that way. I know my mom had similar feelings as a young adult, but she and I are a lot alike personality-wise, so it doesn’t surprise me. I did leave that experience of recovering from it with a very strong conviction that everyone should have the right to choose what they want to do with their sexuality, in my opinion. If that’s staying chaste, more power to them. If it’s not, that should be absolutely okay too.

    Elizabeth Smart talked about how she experienced feelings of worthlessness after being rescued because she was sexually assaulted. She has been an outspoken proponent for change in that area of Mormon teachings, and I really encourage anyone that’s interested to look up her writings on the subject–they are beautiful and heartbreaking. I really connected to it because I experienced the same feelings of worthlessness, even though mine was freely consensual. It can be an extremely harmful philosophy.

    • Kay_Sue

      I so apologize for how long this post is…this is a topic near and dear (so to speak) to my heart.

    • Crusty (I HATE TAXES) Socks

      You sound like you’ve managed to get over your issues very well. Now you have the tools to help your kids deal with it in the future.
      :)

    • Kay_Sue

      Aye, and step one has been keeping them as far away from fundamentalism as possible.

      Even now, my husband can’t believe the things that we were taught. He’s like, Wait, what?! Jesus and dinosaurs and modesty, oh my!

    • Brittany Anne

      Don’t apologize! I know so few people who grew up in that kind of worldview, and I think it’s so interesting to see how other people dealt with it. I dealt with similar feelings, and it sounds like you’ve come through remarkably well. :)

    • Kay_Sue

      I read your post below (maybe on someone else’s comment? I don’t remember now…) and I was like, wowsers, someone else that came through with similar feelings. It was good to see someone else went through it. At the time, it was so isolating.

    • Emil

      Very interesting perspective and I’m glad I read it. I think parents worry so much about the consequences of teens having sex they forget about the consequences that the “sex is bad” message sends.

    • keelhaulrose

      Thank you for this.
      I once met a boyfriend’s parents, and his mom asked if I was a virgin four questions into our conversation. I refused to answer because I said I would not have my qualities as a human being being judged solely on whether or not I had slept with someone to that point. I said a good person is a good person even if they’ve had sex, and being a virgin does not automatically give someone exalted status, you can be a bad apple and a virgin. I refrained from telling her her sweet little boy most certainly was not a virgin, and I wasn’t the first.
      It was very telling to me that the sex question came up before we were asked how long we’d been dating, or where I was from, or how we met. Nope, it was more important that I was untouched. That is placing way too much importance on my genitals.

    • pixie

      I met pretty much all of my boyfriend’s family about a month after we started dating because I was invited over for Thanksgiving. His family from NJ were visiting and pretty much the first thing the oldest one said to me was “Have you slept together yet?” She didn’t mean it in a slut-shamey way, more just really, really nosy. I had just turned 16 and my boyfriend was still 15. I went beat red and had no idea what to say. The other cousins just face palmed.

    • keelhaulrose

      I wish that were the situation, but she made it clear she prized virginity. She told me about her older daughter, “28, just married, pure until her wedding night” before asking if I was pure as well.

    • pixie

      That’s a wee bit scary. If I was in that situation, and had the lady balls to do so, I’d probably ask how she knew her daughter was pure.

    • keelhaulrose

      I’m pretty sure, after meeting her and her husband, I knew how. She was such a momma’s girl, and she lived at home until she married, and she was home every night, all that fun stuff. He was big into it as well.
      My ex? Well, let’s just say there’s a reason he went to the farthest in-state school he could. He was a cool guy, but chastity wasn’t his thing.

    • pixie

      Ah, well then, whatever floats their boat, I guess? Maybe?

    • MellyG

      i hate that term “pure” – like…what? no. And again, it makes women think their self worth is tied into their vagina. Just no

    • keelhaulrose

      Exactly.
      It’s my lady bits, not a bottle of spring water.

    • moonie27

      I hate it when people hint around (or outright ask) that with me. I’m always like, “No. Not by any definition of the word. Even the weird ones.”

      And then I just let their minds think about that for a while.

    • Williwaw

      Yeah, I guess when “pure” is a synonym for “virginal”, you know you’re dealing with a nutbag.

    • Kay_Sue

      It really is way too much importance on one’s genitals. Mine just weren’t able to bear that much scrutiny, thanks. ;)

    • Leigha7

      I would never have the nerve to actually do it, but I’d be tempted to say, “Well I WAS, but your son took care of that,” whether it was true or not.

    • MellyG

      i know this isn’t necessarily what YOU are promotion, rather your parents, but my issue with this – “an emphasis on modesty, respect for yourself, maintaining your self-worth, etc” that somehow chastity and self worth, or respect, go together? That someone who isn’t chaste can’t have self worth or respect? Or even be modest? That is what i find harmful about the chaste movement. I have no problem if someone wants to be chaste, it’s their decision, and a personal one, but it doesn’t give them more self worth than i have, nor should it give them more respect.

    • Kay_Sue

      I completely agree.

    • Joye77

      My mom expected me to wait until I was married to have sex since she had done it. When I did not, instead of being helpful or using it to start a discussion about using protection or or anything helpful, she simply called me a slut. I then ended up with so much guilt about sex and my body. I am determined to be different for my kids.

  • Angela

    My family wasn’t nearly as extreme as the Duggars but I was raised in Mormon purity culture. Both my husband and I were virgins when we married (I’d never gone past making out). It was a mistake. Growing up I was told that sexual incompatibility is a myth. It’s not. We weren’t so naive that we expected things to be great from the start, but it’s been 8 years and we still have our frustrations. We like very different things, have very different sex drives, and have very different comfort zones.

    Honestly I’m not sure if that would have been a deal breaker. We still have a lot in common, he’s a great father to our kids, and we do love each other. But even so I would have liked to have made that decision with eyes wide open. It also would have been nice if I’d had previous relationships for comparison’s sake and so that I could have formed more realistic expectations.

    To me not encouraging people to remain chaste before marriage is as idiotic as encouraging them not to gain experience managing finances beforehand. If that was the case it was the case then couples could communicate and plan their finances until they’re blue in the face but the fact remains that there is no way to know what kind of financial manager someone will be if they have never done it. You might get lucky and find someone who’s compatible and who you can learn together with but it’s a hell of a gamble (and an unnecessary one at that).

    • Kati

      This makes me so sad.

  • gothicgaelicgirl

    yeah i had the condom fairy.
    when i was about 15/16 my mother gave me condoms to put into my purse and said I’d rather you had them and not need them, than need them and not have them.
    you’re a teenager, you will NOT be able to stop what you’re doing because it’ll feel good. be safe.

    she’d also check my little tin I kept my condoms in in my bedroom and if it was running low, she’d skip into my room singing CONDOM FAIRY CONDOM FAIRY KEEP IT SAFE KEEP IT SAFE, throwing a bounty of rubbers on my bed.

    embarrassing at the time, but looking back, made much more sense than blindly pretending that horny teens don’t get up to shenanigans!

    • meteor_echo

      Holy shit. Your mother is awesome.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      she fairly kicks ass alright lol, very open and honest and of course, got criticism for it.
      it seems she should’ve ignored me when i did admit I was having safe regular sex.
      instead of you know, organising me to get the contraceptive implant and allowing my fella to sleep over.

      cos apparently that means she’s a bad parent.

      she always said she would rather we did it safely in the house, rather than sneak around in parks and all like a lot of people my age were.

    • Megan Zander

      I don’t think its bad parenting. My mom was the same, she didn’t go so far as to let me have a guy sleep over, but occasionally she would tell me, “Ok, so we are going out and we wont be home for THREE HOURS so if you want to have YOUR BOYFRIEND OVER, we will be back in THREE HOURS.” Then she’d stare into my eyes all intently to make sure I got her point. I took her up on her offer, sometimes. Other times I was just excited to take a long bath in an empty house and raid the fridge.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      oohhh the days when stolen ice-cream filled the void haha!!

      i think my mom was so open cos I’m the only girl, plus she had me quite young. she’s always been very honest. she’s even said she never ever regrets having me, though i know it cut off a lot of options for her, but she says all she regrets is the timing, not having seen more of the world.

      a lot of people would be pissed at their mother saying that, but i love her honesty, plus it shows why she was so determined to make sure I was being smart and safe.

    • Megan Zander

      ME TOO! my mom was 17 when she got pregnant, so she got married and had me before she even finished high school. I think it was a way for her to make sure I didn’t get pregnant too soon, but I appreciate that her response wasn’t to treat sex as evil.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      awesome!
      i’d SO much rather a slightly unorthodox, eccentric HONEST mother than one who claps her hands over her ears going NO NO HEEELLLLL NOOOOOO at the thought of her teen having sex!

      plus, the fact she was always so honest and open made the awkwardness that little less weird!
      i even asked her advice with “bedroom tips” once i got a little older lol.

      we really are more like sisters than mother/daughter but then i see friends who had a “normal” mom and they had to sneak around, mutter to me could they borrow a condom (who “borrows” a condom?! like ick, i don’t want it back thanks!). not being biased but now out of my four girlfriends, two were pregnant before they were 20, purely because they weren’t told jack about sex.

      one girl’s mother is a born again christian, lovely warm welcoming woman but VERY traditional.

      she flipped when her 19 year old daughter asked could she stay over at her boyfriends house on their anniversary of 3 years!

    • Larkin

      Mine went the opposite route. Got pregnant at 18 before she was married (gasp!!!), then proceeded to go down the “ANYTHING BEYOND KISSING BEFORE MARRIAGE MAKES JESUS CRY” road when I was a teenager. Sigh.

    • Joye77

      My mom wasn’t very helpful for me in my scary teen years. She told me in no uncertain terms that I was supposed to wait until marriage to have sex and when she found out I didn’t she called me a slut. No wonder I’m a mess! I am determined not to be my mom.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      well judging by the gorgeous babba in your picture, you’re doing a damn good job!

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      aaaaaaannd that’s where my beef lies with religion…
      hypocrisy is rife.

    • Psych Student

      Does you mom, by any chance, teach lessons on how to be awesome? Because I would so take that class! This is exactly what I want to do for my future kids – safe sex at home rather than marginal car sex (unless that’s what they are interested in).

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      just remind them to watch that gear shift haha!!
      she kicks fairly awesome ass alright, i do love my pint-sized mommy!

    • Megan Zander

      I am 100% stealing the condom fairy idea when my boys are teens. Like legit with wings and a wand. Your mom sounds great.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      she gave my boyfriend at the time a durex pleasure pack for christmas lol, she’s that kinda open, he was in knots laughing- she said it’s the perfect couples gift!
      then proceeded to tell us we had the house to ourselves for the night cos she was going out with friends haha

    • blh

      I was so awkward I would’ve been WAY to embarrassed for my mom to know I used the condoms (especially if she made a big deal like that). I like the idea of leaving condoms for my son (eben though the idea of him having sex makes me wanna barf). Hopefully they have a male birth control pill when he’s older so I can just give him that. I’m afraid he wouldn’t use the condoms anyways because they really do suck, and I myself m guilty of not using them. I really hope I can emphasize to him that he really should use them.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      this!!
      i do believe it is WAY harder to convince boys to wrap it up.
      not being sexist, it’s just something I’ve noticed.

      I asked my bro at 15, when he got his first serious girlfriend did he want me to get him rubbers or mam and he nearly had a fit when i mentioned mam lol, he said it was bad enough knowing his sister knew he was thinking of sex but worse with his mother!

      we agreed I would buy him a box a month and just leave it in his wardrobe.mam was cool with it, as long as he was being safe.
      she also made it clear to his girlfriends parents that she was more than happy to get the emergency morning after pill if they were ok with it, just in case.

      her parents were delighted that she was being so cautious.

    • C.J.

      I’m imagining the looks my daughters will have on their faces if (when) I do that!! I am so stealing that idea!

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      my first reaction was pretty much wtf?!
      then she explained it to me and I was like hey-HEY, SHE’S buying the johnnies, free sex!!!
      hahahaha!!

      my fella couldn’t believe it.
      his dad would mumble at him every few months then shove a few rubbers under his bedroom door lol.

    • C.J.

      I have a feeling my kids won’t be surprised if I do something like that. My dad wanted to buy a box and leave them in the medicine cabinet. My mom told him I wouldn’t take them out of there anyway because I would be embarrassed if he knew. She made sure I knew how to go get the pill.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      funny how some dads can be more open.
      my dad was horrified when he found out that i always carried three condoms with me…at age 18.
      hahaha!!!
      he’s very old-fashioned though and once he got over the shock, he seemed more glad I was being safe

    • C.J.

      My mom was in the hospital for a bit when I was a teenager, she had a nervous breakdown. Dad was worried because she wasn’t there for me too talk to. He tried to have a sex/birth control talk with me. Horribly embarrassing at the time but pretty funny looking back on it. I have to give him credit though. He is very uncomfortable talking about sex with or in front of his kids, even now. He tried very hard to be open. He ended up going through my room when I wasn’t home to make sure I was on the pill. Mom had already had that talk with me numerous times. He relaxed after he found it. I found that out years later, I don’t blame him though. He was scared that I wouldn’t know how to get it, he even offered to take me.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      wow that’s one amazing parent!
      i remember i got my first period and was SO upset cos my stepmom was away and only my dad was at home.
      I came downstairs and asked him where my stepmom kept her “lady bits” (a special drawer she kept tampax, veet, razors, general girly bathroom supplies)

      he didn’t know.
      she wasn’t answering her phone.
      i was inconsolable cos i felt so weird trying to explain to my dad that i didn’t want to use pads, only tampons (bad psoriasis all over my thighs and inner thighs, even daily pantyliners would result in me being rubbed raw)

      so this wonderful man went to the shop and bought me one box of EVERY type of tampon for me because- “I wasn’t sure which one would….fit…..best for you….”

      i had enough tampons for the next five years!

    • C.J.

      Aww, what a wonderful ad you have!

    • keelhaulrose

      I’m stealing your mother’s idea. My mom, when I turned 18, took me to a sex shop. She said she didn’t know what I had done to that point, nor did she want to know. She said there was a lot more to sex than the missionary position, and that having a few kinks was perfectly normal, though knew I wouldn’t want to talk about them in front of her. She gave me some money, hooked me up with an employee who also ran classes, and told me she’d be waiting in the coffee shop down the street (this employee was available for private shopping for up to an hour). Oh, man, did I learn so much during my time there. If I wasn’t sure about something the instructor would gently pull out what about it interested me and what made me nervous, and she really got me excited about trying some new things. I wish that place was still open because that whole experience was awesome, and by the time I met my husband I was confident in my kinks, likes, and limits so we knew quickly we were pretty compatible in bed.

    • Psych Student

      That is freaking amazing! I’m looking into becoming a sex educator and now I’m thinking it might be *super* fun to work at a sex shop and be the person who explains all that stuff. :)

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      a friend of mine actually worked in a sex shop in dublin for years, she’s seen and heard of all kinds of fetishes.
      she said the worst she ever heard, was a young couple who got off watching childbirth videos.
      she said it didn’t bother her, but she was genuinely baffled as to what on earth was so sexy about it.
      apparently they kept asking her to locate “close up graphic” videos.

      i dunno, seems a short leap from that to watching torture porn..
      google “gravidophilia”
      genuinely baffling…

    • Danyelle

      I am so stealing this! Condom fairy! I will also give my daughter access to any/all means of BC she wants. I do not want to be a grandmother too early.

    • Jessie

      Your mom sounds like my mother-in-law. If I didn’t know for certain that my husband definitely does not have any long lost siblings, I’d almost dare to say they were the same person. He and I were in high school when we met, and she would always just randomly come in and leave packs of condoms on his dresser while we were hanging out, much to his extreme annoyance (cue shouts of “MOOOOOMMMMM GET OUT OMG”) and my extreme mortification (I was a shy little thing in that department, I didn’t get more comfortable with sexual things until I was older). If we went out on a date, she’d check his wallet and my bag before we left and put one in if we didn’t have them, because her logic was that if we were gonna do it then there was no way of stopping it, and she’d rather give us the tools to be safe than waste time trying to convince two horny teenagers that we were making a mistake, or have him come home to her and tell her I was pregnant.
      When we moved in together as adults, still about a year before we actually became sexually active with each other, she gave us a big brown paper bag full of them and told us if we ever ran out to call her. I can honestly see her seriouosly singing the condom fairy song if she had thought of it.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      lol that is awesome!!
      it may be embarrassing but i think it’s easier when parents are open about sex!

    • Rachel Sea

      When my cousin turned 15, I started giving him bags of assorted condoms. I told him basically the same thing as your mom, but I also said I wanted him to give them to all his friends too. I told him that they should all try out all the different brands and sizes to see what fit best, and to practice putting them on before they had anyone to use them with, so they wouldn’t be embarrassed in the moment.

      He was a little embarrassed to have the talk, but he’s 20 now, and neither he nor any of his friends have babies, so I think it was worth it.

    • Williwaw

      Awesome! The mother of a guy I knew (not my boyfriend) let him know that she knew that he was having sex by removing his package of condoms from a drawer and leaving it on his pillow. Not so awesome.

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      see I’d find that creepy…
      it’s one thing to buy some and leave em out but to go rooting to find some, i’d feel betrayed trust-wise that she was muddling through my stuff

    • Joye77

      I love this idea, I am stealing this idea when my boys are older!

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      i forsee an “Awesome Pro-Active Mommy” award in your future. =)

  • Alicia Kiner

    When I read the headline on my Facebook feed, my first thought was why can’t there be a happy medium? This pretty much sums up my opinion on the matter:

    “I want my kids to become sexually active when they are mature enough to be, when they can handle the chance of unwanted pregnancies, and when they can navigate the emotional territory that comes with having sex. But I never want them to feel like they are less than worthy humans if they aren’t chaste. I would never dictate to them how they should live their sexual lives, because I am not them”

    I also want them to be safe. I’m no where near ready for them to be having sex, but I know it’s really not that far off in the future. Hubby and I are still working out how to have those conversations. We know we need to start, but not really sure how to keep it age appropriate

  • Sara610

    I’m a huge, HUGE fan of comprehensive sex-ed programs like Our Whole Lives. I think they do the best job of giving kids the facts they need to be safe, but more importantly than that, they get kids comfortable TALKING about sex. What they are and are not comfortable with or ready for–how can we expect kids to make responsible choices about birth control when they can’t even say the word “condom” without turning as red as a beet? So they’ll have a better chance of waiting to become sexually active until they’re truly ready, and then knowing how to avoid STDs and unplanned pregnancy when they do become sexually active.
    In my career teaching high school in a poor, rural, highly conservative area, I had so many of my female students get pregnant because their boyfriends wanted to have sex, and they may or may not have wanted to–but they never developed the ability to say what they wanted or say, “I like this, but I’m not comfortable with that”. So often they ended up having sex when they weren’t ready, and then because they didn’t know about birth control, they got pregnant.

    • Armchair Observer

      Exactly. I would love to some sort of guerrilla sex ed programs–cool (factual) videos right on the homepage for youtube and the like. So many kids aren’t getting the message until it’s too late.

  • Crusty (I HATE TAXES) Socks

    Eve (I HATE DUGGARS) Vawter

  • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

    Oh and of course it’s always boys who need to show restraint…because girls don’t actually WANT sex, we just do it to trap the mens?

    • gothicgaelicgirl

      of course, don’t you know the female libido is a myth?
      don’t you know we only exist so men aren’t shoving their wee willie winkies into the mattress?

    • Williwaw

      Or into a toaster pastry.

    • Megan Zander

      I remember SO CLEARLY one day senior year during play rehearsal hanging out with girls I had known for years and somehow we got on the topic of handheld shower massagers and female masturbation. It was the first time I ever learned I wasn’t the only one girl who did this, and it sounds so corny, but at 17, it really lifted a huge shame burden off my shoulders. Girls need to know that it’s ok to want it.

    • pixie

      I actually wasn’t even aware that girls masterbated until I was a teen. I just wasn’t really interested in exploring my body (never was told it was shameful or anything, just wasn’t really interested in it). I wasn’t even sheltered, I just…didn’t think about it ever, I guess. Never crossed my mind.

    • NatS

      Same here. I thought it was something guys did but never thought about woman doing it. It wasn’t until after I started having sex that I thought about it.

    • Valerie

      So much this. I thought “taking care of myself” was something to be ashamed of and hid it and never discussed with my girl friends until I was well into college.

    • WriterLady

      Also note that the Babble author uses “the pitfalls of promiscuity” to describe a woman’s supposed dilemma, but the man’s is not showing “restraint or respect.” This is such an out-of-touch (yet over-hyped) stereotype, and, frankly, it should be considered offensive to both genders.

    • Valerie

      When you say “trap the mens” I think of a va-jay like a venus fly trap. With teeth and everything.

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      wait that is how mine looks… isn’t that normal?

    • OhHeyDelilah

      Yes. But if it’s actually normal it should have multiple rows of teeth, like a great white shark. If it just has the one set, you’re doing it wrong.

  • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

    About those supposed pitfalls of promiscuity: I’ve been with, ahem, a fair number of people, many of whom I didn’t know very well or particularly care about. Without getting too far into my life story, I can say without a shadow of a doubt that my ‘promiscuity’ had no negative affects on me. I figured out what I did and didn’t want, had lots and lots of fun, didn’t catch anything or get knocked up, and have absolutely no regrets about any of it. None. Not a single regret. Even the ones who were terrible or whose names I don’t remember (or never knew).

    • noodlestein

      Amen, sister! You’re singing my song with this comment. I learned a lot about myself, and garnered some great stories along the way. I don’t regret my ‘misspent’ youth, and wouldn’t have spent it any other way!

    • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

      Cool. I mean, I’m not saying that no one ever regrets sleeping around, or sleeping with a certain person, or whatever. For sure some people do. But I hate the whole trope that ALL women who ‘sleep around’ end up full of guilt and STDs and are never happy.
      I guess it mostly depends on what you’re looking for. If you size up every person you meet as a potential husband, then sure, you’re probably going to have some disappointments. But if you go into just looking for fun, someone to spend time with, whatever….

    • noodlestein

      Oh, absolutely. It’s not for everyone. It’s just so nice to see a perspective like mine, since it’s usually the whole, “well, if you sleep around you don’t respect yourself, regret it,” etc.

    • http://www.twitter.com/ohladyjayne allisonjayne

      So this is only semi-related, but last night I was watching Golden Girls (as I frequently do while doing dishes) and it was an early episode where Blanche’s niece comes to visit and ends up sleeping with like 3 dudes after only being there for 2 days and the girls are all tsk-tsking about it. Finally Blanche talks to her about it, and I was all “what the hell is this prude BS on my Golden Girls” but then Blanche hit the nail on the head: “When I’m with a man, it’s because I like him, not because I want him to like me”.

  • tk88

    Sexual compatibility is such an important part of marriage that it’s a bad idea to NEVER have sex with someone before marriage. This is why you sometimes end up with religious people who are gay (or apparently asexual according to the comments!) end up married to straight people they aren’t attracted to in the slightest. I feel like these chaste relationships also confuse people about how you are supposed to feel about partner. Yes you should have similar views, interests, have conversations, enjoy spending time together, etc. But if at the end of the day, the idea of screwing them repulses you, then it’s not going to work. In fact, it’s quite helpful and fun in a relationship if you sometimes can’t stop yourself from pouncing on them. More than anything though, it saddens me that there is a large population of young people (men as well as women) who are being shamed about their natural, normal sexual desires and urges. Also, there’s something to be said about the bizarre and sometimes frightening fetishism or habits that result from intense sexual repression.

    • MellyG

      Agreed completely. No, sex isn’t EVERYTHING, but it’s pretty important to a relationship, so if you’re not sexually compatible, you’re screwed. Or well, you’re not……as the case may be

  • TwentiSomething Mom

    There’s nothing wrong with waiting until marriage. Plenty of people do it as a personal choice. It doesn’t mean that they are extreme fundamentalists, or bigots or slut-shamers. A lot of drama can be eliminated that way. No worries about STDS or unplanned pregnancies. There is a reason why parents promote chastity, having sex at a young age and outside of a monogamous relationship definitely has its pitfalls.

    • CMJ

      I think the problem comes in when you decide to “force” your children into it by not teaching them about sex and safe sex and only promote chastity and abstinence.

      I don’t think there’s anything wrong in it being anyone’s personal choice – but I wouldn’t force it on anyone, including my children. It’s just not realistic.

    • WriterLady

      In addition to CMJ’s comment, there is also the well-known issue that parents who advocate against certain taboo things–such as sex or drinking–often fail in their agenda, because teens often do the exact opposite of what they are told. Classifying something as forbidden makes it all the more appealing. A parent doesn’t need to promote sex before marriage or at a young age, but explicitly enforcing such a rule sets a dangerous precedent. I’m a firm believer that this is why the teenage pregnancy rate is higher in states that have a statistically greater proportion of fundamentalist religious types (i.e. southern states, such as Mississippi and Texas). These teens end up having sex (as teens are wont to do), but because they are afraid to approach their parents and other adult mentors for guidance, they forego contraception.

    • moonie27

      Waiting ’till marriage has its own pitfalls. And not waiting doesn’t necessarily mean drama or pregnancy scares or STIs – I certainly haven’t waited but I haven’t experienced any of that.

      It’s more important to let your kid work out how they feel about sex – is it a big important emotional thing or a fun physical activity? Does it vary depend on the person and/or time in their life? – and then help them figure out how to have good, safe sex working within that.

    • Angela

      And married people aren’t immune for STDs or unplanned pregnancies. I know a few women who have gotten STDs from their husbands (and they were religious couples who waited).

    • Kelly

      There’s nothing wrong with a person waiting until marriage IF that is that person’s choice.

      There’s something very wrong with one person taking control of another person’s body and sex life as the Duggar parents have done. That is something very personal that each and every human being should control for themselves. Especially when those human beings are adults.

      That’s the real issue here.

    • Angela

      Chastity can have its pitfalls too. I was a virgin when I married and I do regret it.

    • MellyG

      My college roommate was in a Christian group in college, very strict Christians. All of her friends got married IN college and her and i think they rushed into, not because they were ready for marriage, but because they were horny. There’s a difference. We don’t know how those couples are doing, because she came out a year after college and they all shunned her. So, great folk!

  • C.J.

    People can try to teach their kids whatever they want, that doesn’t mean they are going to listen. There is no way to make them listen unless you stand over them 24/7. I really, really don’t want to think about my kids having sex, ever. I also don’t want to send them out in to the world unprepared. I’m not going to stand over them every minute. I want them to learn how to make decisions on their own. They are going to make good decisions and they are going to make bad decisions. They are going to learn from all their decisions.

  • kdk

    This sounds like chaste-shaming to me. If you don’t judge people on how much sex they’ve had (and of course you shouldn’t!), then why is it fair to judge them on how they’ve chosen not to? (quote “creepy” unquote). A lot of people who’ve made that decision have done so thoughtfully, joyfully, considered-ly, and are not slut-shamy or judging anyone else, just making a personal choice.

    This is really condescending.

    • meteor_echo

      Deciding to wait until the marriage is one thing. Having your entire “relationship” closely monitored by your parents, never having any alone time, not even kissing until marriage, not discussing any of the important points of life together (you know, like children, politics, whatever else have you), and yet STILL making it look like a better thing is a totally different can of worms.

    • WriterLady

      The reality is that there is a whole lot of slut-shaming occurring everywhere in America right now; that is a fact. Chaste-shaming may happen in certain instances, but it doesn’t impact legal proceedings (see below) or create divisiveness based on antiquated notions of how the separate genders should adhere to properly ascribed qualities.

      What is condescending is that the Babble author went the route of offering up the dangers of uncommitted or unwed sex in very different ways, depending on gender. For the boys, the focus is on “restraint and respect.” For the girls, the focus is on the “pitfalls of promiscuity.” These are the same sexist tropes that are replayed in these types of arguments over and over again.

      At times, this rhetoric can even be dangerous. We all know that many conservative politicians and certain attorneys will try to use the illogical premise that if a woman is dressed a certain or way or enjoys having sex, she is more likely to being sexually assaulted or raped, which can actually sway the opinions of uneducated jury members. Regardless of the number of sexual partners a woman has had or how short her skirt happens to have been, she does not deserve to have someone forced on her in a non-consensual scenario. Not. Ever. And discussing “restraint and respect” for boys conjures up the idea that a boy can’t have much respect for a woman if she has consented to and enjoyed a sexual encounter. So, we have a terrible double standard. Once again.

  • CMP414

    If the Duggars or anyone else want to wait for sex and any other physical intimacy before marriage that’s their choice. I certainly did not do that and that was mine. My biggest issue is we have 2 adults who are desiring to make a life long commitment to each other, to raise kids etc together and they never have spent any alone time until they get married. How can you truly know someone and commit to a marriage and have all dates “chaperoned” and your parents monitoring your emails, texts, and phone calls? What if that person turns out to behave really differently around other people than they do with you alone?

    • krock

      I agree… I would be worried that my daughter would end up in abusive relationship or controlling jerk. I mean you hear these stories about women who are married to pedophiles or murderers and think how does the woman have no idea? And I’d guess not having ANY meaningful relationship one on one – would be how.

    • CMP414

      Exactly! I heard Jessa Duggar and her courtship guy ( boyfriend?) were quizzing each other on Bible verses via texts that her whole family could view. How is that at all getting to know someone’s personality? That just sounded like a Sunday school class. I want my daughter to get to know someone and not be afraid to ask him tough questions

    • Kay_Sue

      I really question that too. My sister dated a boy for a long time and it was quickly apparent that he was completely different around my parents than he was even around just me and my husband. He played his role so perfectly that my parents never suspected and were even kind of like, “No….” when I told them how he really was…people can be amazing actors when called upon.

    • Joye77

      Your grandmother sounds awesome!

  • Joy

    The whole not kissing until the wedding thing is so bizarre to me. My HS boyfriend of two years decided after we broke up that he wasn’t going to kiss anyone else until his wedding day. (We had made out but never got two second base, in TWO YEARS of dating. He still considered this sinful and felt the need to avoid kissing in the future out of guilt.) He was my first kiss and first bf and I always thought I just didn’t really like kissing until after we broke up and I realized he was just super bad at it. I knew the girl he eventually married and I feel bad for her, because that cannot have been a pleasant honeymoon surprise to find out that he is a horrible face-eater kisser and probably even worse at everything else. After realizing kissing is actually awesome when the person you are kissing knows what they’re doing, I enjoyed a few years of being quite the lip-slut. Seriously, if you had lips, I probably made out with you freshman year if college. Fun times.

    My super religious younger sister told me she was not kissing until her wedding (we had this conversation when she was 22, not 10) and I convinced her that was a bad idea, thank goodness. I tried to tell her she should test drive the car before she buys it when it comes to sex and not just kissing, but that advice went unheeded.

    • Bethany Ramos

      I had friends that did the exact same thing and had been dating since they were teenagers. I told my husband about it, and he thinks it is utterly creepy.

  • itpainsme2say

    I have no idea about how my parents feel about sex (other than they can’t be black b/c my sister and her teen angst) and I don’t care. I am chaste or whatever because I want to be not b/c of my parents or friends or anything other than my own choice. Sex in my opinion doesn’t last forever and I don’t want it to be at the center of my relationships. That is just me though and I could care less about what other people do in beds or any place you use instead of a bed unless it’s in my room cause that’s a nono. I plan to tell my kids I made a choice and they will have to make a choice and have no shame or regrets because it was their choice. You can’t make your kids be the same as you and I wouldn’t want that but I would want them safe and will teach them to use protection at the very least.

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      wait.. what? Your parents said you cannot have sex with black people because of your sister whaaaaaat?

    • WriterLady

      Itpainsmetosay that mommy and daddy may have been bigoted and clueless. Just a guess. Thought process goes something like this: Black people + sister = teen angst. Teen angst → dirty thoughts & possible romps in the sack.

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      I like your teenager translations hahaha

    • itpainsme2say

      No more like racist parents+black boyfriend= angsty rebellious sister. Which lead to don’t date black people= my parents only known dating/sex rule. I never said I would fallow the rule I was just clarifying how little i know about my parents views on sex and to tell you the truth your comment was kind of hurtful even if it was a joke.

    • WriterLady

      I’m sorry the comment was hurtful. It was definitely directed at your parents, not you. And the equation you offered is essentially the same that I suggested, only with slightly different wording. The “Teen angst → dirty thoughts & possible romps in the sack” portion was meant to illustrate your parents’ likely thought process as the result of their racist views. However, you are not your parents, and that does not mean you should feel hurt by–or personally ashamed of–their actions. Choose your own path, which will undoubtedly be a much wiser one. :)

    • itpainsme2say

      Ok now I’m embarrassed because I thought you meant that that was my thought process (in part b/c I think thats what eve thought in her comment) and I wanted yo to know thats not me at all. If I fell in love with a black boy(or any color really) and my parents said something I would tell them its my life not theirs.

    • WriterLady

      Yes, I meant that to be your parents’ thought process. Absolutely not yours. The wording was a little confusing in your first post (just that one part), which is why Eve asked that question, but I could tell from your original post that it was your parents that were racist and that your sister felt a degree of angst, or anxiety, as a result. I didn’t meant to upset you personally or make fun of you whatsoever. We all have family situations/issues that are embarrassing or irritating, but that does not define who we are—especially if we are a third party to the drama (which you are). Take care!

    • WriterLady

      I’m gonna try this again. Disqus is acting crazy, apparently. Yesterday I deleted a post, and reposted it elsewhere, only to find out that the original post appeared under the name “Guest.” Haha!

      Here’s what I responded:
      Yes, I meant that to be your parents’ thought process. Absolutely not yours. The wording was a little confusing in your first post (just that one part), but I could tell from your original post that it was your parents that were racist and that your sister felt a degree of angst, or anxiety, as a result. I didn’t mean to upset you personally or make fun of you whatsoever. We all have family situations/issues that are embarrassing or irritating, but that does not define who we are—especially if we are a third party to the drama (which you are). Take care!

    • itpainsme2say

      No I ment the only thing as far as sex I know my parents are against is he (or she) being black. My sister dated a mixed boy in high school and he was trouble for sure but my mom seemed to considerate more on the color of his skin than his bad deeds. In other words I know my parents are racist but like my decision to not have sex I don’t let them influence my social ideals.

    • CMJ

      I am curious what you mean by “sex doesn’t last forever”

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      yeah I don’t get it, I had sex once and I am still having it now like RIGHT now

    • CMJ

      well, that’s because you’re a chaste-shamer.

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      Still confused about the black people teenage angst thing

    • MellyG

      I’m glad it’s not just me. I’m also confused about the sex doesn’t last forever. I mean, I think the poster is trying to say that sex isn’t everything in a relationship, which i agree with- you can’t have a relationship that lasts be based ONLY on sex. But, it IS kind of important. I mean, it’s still a pretty integral part of a relationship!

    • WriterLady

      The confusing part is what black people, her sister, and teen angst have anything to do with sex and her parents’ rules. Refer to the first sentence.

    • itpainsme2say

      I’m sorry I wasn’t clear I will try to be better next time but as I said it was a joke about how little I know about my parents views and the one thing I do know is what my sister fought with my parents about, her black boyfriend. Sorry I keep on repeating but you comments really upset me and I just want you to understand so you don’t get confused.

    • Kelly

      Her parents are racist. Often, racist white people will blame teenage angst if their daughter dates a black man. They don’t believe their daughter could actually be attracted to a black man so they see it as her only dating him to hurt her parents. Additionally, some girls from super racist white families actually will date black men just to piss off their parents, because it sure will.

      The rule she mentioned is quite common in racist families. My parents are also racist and the “no blacks” rule was often repeated to me throughout my teen years.

      I get that it seems to weird to people with normal upbringings but it’s quite common for those of us with racist parents. If her older sister dated a black man, her parents probably were very vocal about demanding that she not “rebel” like her sister did by doing the same. It’s sad but true.

    • Me-Me

      Once again, yep. In my family, my biological fathers side are from the deep south, and are racist, and I mean family in the Klan racist. On that side you don’t race trade. Ever. My grandmother told my aunt when she was younger that if she ever brought a black man home, they’d both be buried in the back yard. Well we were all, all us kids raised that you stick to the white. We all have, except my cousin. She prefers black men. Has a mixed child and is engaged to a black guy. My aunt loves my cousin and her grandson. She says its not his fault he was born black. And my aunt has gone rounds with her over the years. She was raised to NOT let a black man touch you, and well guess what? I mean I personally don’t get how she could but its not my life. Before my father died, he married a woman with 6 kids, 3 girls. My father was as racist as they come. Swastika prison tat and all. Well the girls are grown a bit now and the older two like the black boys and this old ass prison rat got my 17 yr old step sister pregnant. If he was alive….Woooo. Anywho, I feel the same. I told my girl that I don’t care if shes straight, gay, bi-whatever. Better not bring a black person home. But I’m not actually raising her to be that way cuz I don’t want it to back fire and its exhausting to always be mad. I don’t have to worry about that yet and so far she seems to not be, but who knows when she gets older. For anyone who criticizes me, it was the way I was raised. To me, its not wrong, no matter the PC way to do things.

    • Kay_Sue

      Yes. I managed to avoid it by having relatively sane parents, but many of my friends were raised the same way.

    • itpainsme2say

      Only edit my sisters rebellion can totally be traced back to my parents dislike of her boyfriend because my parents held off on opinions until we were older, them saying no to the black boy came out of left field so it was my sisters cue to go crazy. The boyfriend came b4 the crazy not after but it was my parents falt not his.

    • itpainsme2say

      Did you write this b4 or after I explained because I can elaborate . I was joking about how little I know about my parents opinion by listing literally the only example of something they wouldn’t be okay with

    • Kay_Sue

      I’m still having it as often as I can, and I intend to have it for as long as humanly possible. Preferably longer. #Hornball

    • itpainsme2say

      Are you old or paralyzed in some way? If not then it doesn’t apply to you. To be clear I am speaking only for myself and love that you still have sex with your husband but thats not really the point.

    • itpainsme2say

      When I’m old and feeble or when we are to busy with kids or jobs l think I would rather have other means of connecting or feeling intimate

    • MellyG

      I”m sure there’s an age when sex is not longer really an interesting activity, i mean, my grandpa is 90, and i doubt he’s really thinking about it, BUT – when you say too busy with kids or jobs, it’s STILL important to be sexually active. I mean, everyone is different, that’s just my two cents – that sex IS important to keeping a marriage going. I mean, it’s not the ONLY thing, but it sure is important!

    • Kay_Sue

      My grandparents are 77 and 70 respectively and still screwing a mind-boggling and insanity-threatening number of times. Really, you do NOT want to know what that woman is willing to do to encourage him to drive into town to get her a Buster Bar…….

    • itpainsme2say

      Maybe I should say we don’t know that it’s forever like if your in an accident or break a hip or there are times when you are apart or you really have to make choice sex or comforting the kid through their fear of storms. Also how do you know that about your gran

    • moonie27

      “Also how do you know that about your gran”
      I imagine she told her. I could make your hair curl with the things people in my family have told me.

      Sex is so important in a relationship, though, and many, many relationships have ended because of sexual incompatibility. Saving it for marriage doesn’t give your marriage any better chance of being happy.

    • Kay_Sue

      Because she is a very open woman, and a real hoot. There is nothing she won’t tell you if the mood strikes her. And while disturbing, the story is hilarious. Or would be, I suppose, if it wasn’t my grandmother telling it.

    • MellyG

      my mother and grandmother have always been VERY open about sex with me. My grandmother was married young, at 16, but says if she had gotten married older she would NOT have been a virgin. She has told all of her granddaughters to test drive the car, lol.

      And just because people enjoy sex, or had sex prior to marriage, doesn’t mean they put it above all else (this is directed to the poster above, not you kay sue) and neglect their kids, lol. But it’s VERY important to a long term relationship.

    • Kay_Sue

      Sounds very similar to what my gran would say, lol.

      I totally agree on the second paragraph too–if the kids are sick or crying, I can’t even focus on sex. It’s the furthest thing from either of our minds at that point.

    • MellyG

      you mean you don’t drop everything else to get it on? lol.

      I’m currently in a long distance relationship, like across the world long distance, and i have to say – it REALLY makes you realize how important the sex is! But even when we see each other, i’ts not like we drop everything else and have sex 24/7. I mean, we’ve TALKED about doing that, but usually we get tired, and like to do other things like eat and go on real dates, lol

      I assume that when we get married and have little ones, sex will still be important, but not the ONLY important part of our relationship, just like now. Funny how that works!

    • MellyG

      but why would that have to be a choice? i’m honestly confused. Yes, there are times when sex should take a back seat, but, i’m confused that you think married people have to be like “it’s sex or…taking care of the kid”

    • itpainsme2say

      the kid is in your bed is what im saying im giving examples of reasons you wouldnt be having sex. i you dont like that one your on different shifts and when your both home you dicide to chose sleep (need) insted of sex(want)

    • MellyG

      That happens to all parents, like i said, it’s natural for sex to take a back seat at times. But that still happens if you had sex prior to marriage. It also doesn’t make sex less important

    • itpainsme2say

      I know that where did i say that if you did wait till marrige sex wouldnt evently fall by the wayside or be less frquent i didnt in fact i said it was enevitable.

    • Me-Me

      You’re exactly right. Good sex or bad sex. It all stops at some point. You just miss it more if it was good sex. Bad sex just sucks all around.

    • MellyG

      Upon rereading i think you’re trying to say, how do you know the marriage is forever, and not based on sex, if you’ve had sex before the marriage? Am i right? I’m assuming you’re young, but 1) going into a marriage a virgin doesn’t ensure it will last forever and 2) because you’ve had sex prior to marriage doesn’t mean that’s what the marriage is based on. I think some of this becomes more clear with age though.

      For instance, my boyfriend lives in another country – and if he was with me just for sex, it would be easier for him to get it locally. We actually spent hours skyping prior to ever even meeting, and we were both already pretty smitten. However, sex is STILL very important to the relationship – if we weren’t sexually compatible, there’s no way i’d contemplate spending forever with him!

    • itpainsme2say

      Well thats you and this is me. I am glad you are in love and that you enjoy sex with him. I am also happy you are dealing with the distance well. I however am a diffrent person with diffrent experiances.

    • MellyG

      I was just trying to understand what you meant. Your choices are fine, but people are just trying to explain that just because people have sex prior to marriage, that doesn’t mean their marriage is ONLY about sex.

    • itpainsme2say

      I am young but my words are no less valid i hate when people ask about age. 1) I know that but its not my only reason 2) I also know that and good on them for their choices and happiness but i have other issues

    • MellyG

      No one said your words are not valid. However, my views on sex as a teenager, and my views on sex as a grown woman are very different. Things change with age. And you say you have “other” issues – that is fine, and your choices should be your choices. However, it seems like you’re saying that if you have sex prior to marriage, the marriage is all about the sex? Or that you aren’t in it forever. Perhaps i’m confused – i think some of us are just trying to understand your points, and it seems like your’e getting defensive. I would never want to convince someone to have sex, it’s a personal decision and everyone has to make their own choices. I’m just pointing out that sex IS a very important part to a long term relationship, anyone married long enough will tell you that. Yes, other things becomes more important, but that doesn’t make sex an irrelevant part of the marriage. I think that’s all some of us are trying to say.

    • itpainsme2say

      I am an adult but young if that helps. I am defensive because people are arguing that its not important so have it with anybody but its so importent that marriages fall apart. Its not you Ive got a prob with sorry. I know thats what it sounded like but I am not talking about other peoples marriages I am talking about me and my future and my fears. Yes it is important to OTHER people not me.

    • MellyG

      I don’t think anyone is arguing “have it with anyone it’s not important”, or at least i’m not. I think it’s VERY important, so no, don’t have it with anyone and everyone, but equally, make sure the person you marry is the right one, and for me, and a lot of people, that includes sex. I only have one friend that waited until marriage – she got married relatively young, and 10 years later her marriage is falling apart, mainly because she hates sex with her husband. They’r not divorced, but she’s miserable.

      I’m not saying that’s the experience of everyone that waits, i hope it’s not – but it’s a possibility. I think that’s all people are trying to say.

      I personally think sex should happen when you’re ready. That means different things for different people. I just don’t like the idea of a “If this happens, then sex will happen” – it seems artificial.

    • itpainsme2say

      How about if I dont want to marry him I dont want to have sex with him or if Im not ready to marry him then Im not ready to have sex with him. Again this is just me all other people make the choice for themselves. Also now that I know about your friend I can see why you want me to understand b4 hand but are you sure the only reason shes not happy is how he puts his p in her v (sorry if that was crass).

    • MellyG

      well, and that’s why everyone is different. I’m not a big “marriage” person, i might one day, might not. Everyone is different on that as well.

      As for the friend, it’s probably not THE only reason, but it’s the biggest one. Sexual chemistry, and not JUST the putting the p in the v, is really important. And when that goes wrong, or if it’s never right, it can just make everything else crap. It’s hard to explain, but it’s a pretty important way to connect – and yes, there are other ways to connect as well, but it’s all kind of tied together.

      At the end of the day, as long as YOU are making right choices for YOU, and not for other people, it’s fine. And things can change – in high school, i sort of assumed i’d wait until marriage, but that changed when i got a bit older. To each their own

    • Me-Me

      Well your first sentence makes absolute sense, even to me and the way I did things. Shit, if the dude is so not worth your time where you don’t want to marry him, not ready yet, then why waste that gift on a douche who probably doesn’t deserve sex in the first place, let alone something special like your virginity! I wish my first had been with someone else. And not at age 14, tho apparently that’s the norm now. (!) If I could’ve waited til I met my high school sweetie not long after, I think it would’ve been a better situation. I guess the point of this all, could be that if the guy isn’t worth it-don’t do it!

    • Me-Me

      Its a paradox for sure. I honestly don’t see where age comes in, unless you’re like 14 and under. It is important. Sex. Its essential. But you decide for yourself when to do it. I think that people should um, find out before the wedding if the person they are marrying is, for the lack of delicacy good in bed. If the sex sucks, it affects so much more than the bedroom. As you and I were discussing before. But I think you know what you are doing. Unlike the Duggar kids. They really don’t know. I hope that when you find the guy you want to spend your life with, possibly after the engagement but before the ceremony, you find out if this essential part of love and life is right with him. But you know whats right for oyu and perhaps that’s exactly what will happen. Casual sex is all good and healthy, but sex with someone you truly love and share ALL with is so much better.

    • MellyG

      your grandparents sound awesome! My grandmother is 78, but papa is 90, so i think SHE would be up for a roll in the hay (i know this because she asks me way too much about MY sex life ) but sadly papa has alzheimers, and not that it prohibits him physically (i don’t think!) i think it just….well, makes it a little more difficult.

    • Kay_Sue

      They are pretty hilarious. They are relative newlyweds, as she’s my grandfather’s second wife (my paternal grandmother died well before I was born), so I’m betting that helps things along–they’ve actually only been married about as long as my parents have been. She embarrassed the crap out of me back in the day, but as I got more comfortable with myself as a sexual entity (which sounds kinda like a succubus, so I like it), I grew to enjoy her anecdotes so much.

    • MellyG

      Succubus, lol. My grandparents have been together 60 years,i think, so not newlyweds, but my grandmother is NOT shy about saying that you don’t last 60 years without good sex!

    • Kelly

      For me, I don’t really connect sex with intimacy at all. I know that’s weird but I’ve always felt that way. Having sex (for me) is like doing something really fun with a friend, like playing a sport or maybe going on a roller coaster.

      When I think of intimacy, I think of being held or just casually leaning into my guy’s shoulder while he puts his hand on my waist. I also think of the times my husband showered me and dressed me because I was ill or held my hair back so I wouldn’t throw up on it.

    • itpainsme2say

      Which is great and that is how view it but I want that to be clear. Hormones kind of confuse the issue and want to know I’m invested b/c of love not sex

    • Me-Me

      Haha I agree 100% again! The intimacy I share with my hubs now, is the hand holding on the couch, snuggling while watching a movie, a kiss on the forehead and of course, the taking care of me when I drink too much.

    • moonie27

      It’s not like once you have the sex every other form of intimacy becomes meaningless or you’ll be controlled by the sexual urges. I’ve had sex only with people I’ve had no intention of marrying (and very few would I ever date.)

      And any married couple can tell you there’s a million ways of being intimate; some are sexual and some are not.

    • itpainsme2say

      Exactly except for myself why would I want meaningless sex

    • moonie27

      Sex outside of marriage isn’t necessarily emotionally meaningless.
      (and, uh, my sex isn’t meaningless. It just doesn’t come with a deep emotional connection.)

    • itpainsme2say

      Reading what I said does sound harsh and Im not trying to sound insulting to your chocies but for me having sex with people I didnt want to marry is meaningless thats why i said “for myself”

    • Kelly

      Thank you for teaching your kids about protection. Also, I’m sorry your parents are racists. Mine are too, it sucks.

    • itpainsme2say

      I’m always trying to point out why it’s wrong but it’s in one ear and out the other. I’m just proud they weren’t able to influence me into believing the same things.

    • Kelly

      Oh yeah, I’ve been there. I remember telling my dad, “You love Richard Pryor! You love his movies! Would you really not want him at your dinner table? Would you seriously be able to say to his face that he’s less than because of his skin color?”

      I know he logically understood what I was saying but his hardcore racism wouldn’t let him admit it or even really think about it and maybe change his mind.

      I’m also so glad I escaped that type of thinking. Good for us!

    • moonie27

      Having sex before marriage doesn’t mean that it’ll become the center of your relationship (and after a while, the hormones’ll calm down too.)

      That being said, not everyone is cut out for slutttttty sexxxxyyy times and that’s okay too.

    • itpainsme2say

      No I mean I don’t want it to be a factor in my decision but it’s not my only reason or the whole reason. Some times people want more and people who are chaste have a hard time explaining the why without religion or at least I do.

    • moonie27

      I definitely don’t understand waiting for marriage – either it becomes a meaningless technicality or it keeps an important part of your life from becoming a factor in your decision making.

      I do understand waiting for a serious commitment or certain level of emotional connection or whatever. Sex is emotionally very important to some people.

    • itpainsme2say

      Its hard to explain as I said and not to be rude but I don’t need you to understand why because this is my life, body,and relationship. In your last sentence you said some not all and for me it might be but I don’t want it to be and hope if for some reason after p in the v I find I no longer love the man I’m with I will remember the other reasons I married him

    • Me-Me

      Honest question with no disrespect, but what if, after the fact, you find that you cant remember those reasons, or if you are just so incompatible that even if you make good friends, you cant see living the rest of your life with him? Marriage is hard. Very hard. Sex doesn’t have to be THE most important thing, but it is a huge part. Not being compatible that way, can and I know from experience, hurt you in a lot of ways. So, if you wait, and you find that it just doesn’t work and you cant find yourself remembering the way he made you laugh or ect what would you do? It hurts to feel unwanted in the bedroom, and if the sex sucks, who would want to do it? Takes too much effort..lol

    • itpainsme2say

      Ok I’m going to get personal when I say chaste I mean p in the v and the rest is up for discussion. Why would not remember did I hit my head or does sex have memory altering quality not that I’ve heard and I have heard a lot. If it’s not good so what most things get better with practice and perseverence. My point is that I would know we were compatible as more than friends b/c sex is not the only difference between people who are dating and people who are friends.

    • Me-Me

      No I mean that sometimes, in certain situations, its hard to remember what it was that you actually fell for. Not memory loss but, marriage is a puzzle. Stuff has to fit (no pun intended) or the whole thing is screwed. Since my hubs and I don’t really have sex, I do focus on those things, why I adore him so much. But he’s different. Special. A different guy, I’m not so sure I could live like this and do this. But as I said, hes special. And honestly, I never told him this, but in bed, its not the best I’ve ever had. Hes fine at it, has good moves but I have had some serious sexual chemistry with other people. But I try not to focus on that. I married him for his mouth. Kidding, not really. LOL. If like for you, you wait to do the whole shebang, find out its not that great and his feels the same or feels resentment, then things can start to fall apart. Become unhappy, fight, anger, hurt then maybe stepping outside the marriage. NOT saying that’s what will happen, I am genuinely curious as to what you think you would do, since you don’t know til you’re there.

    • itpainsme2say

      You are basicly agreeing with me but then not.You ar not having sex and he is not the best youve had but you love him and will stay with him so why are you arguing with my reasoning

    • Me-Me

      I can see how it looks contradicting. But I was asking about you. If you found yourself in that position. My hubs is different. We’ve been through hell together. Stage 3 colon cancer after only being together 6 months. I really don’t think, if it was anybody else, I could do it. Any other guy I have been with, I couldn’t. But I’ve been with many. Some good, some not so much. But any of the guys in my past, great or not, I don’t think so. And if you didn’t notice, I said I married his mouth. LOL. I wasn’t arguing, I was pointing out things I’ve experienced and wondered what you THINK you would do if after the wedding, it all went south. I totally respect the choice you made for YOURSELF. And the fact that although you haven’t gone all the way, you are still finding things out. I wish there were more people with views and standards like that. But I don’t want that to look like I am going back on previous statements. I know what choice I made, cuz I had that choice with my husband, and while it does suck, I wouldn’t change it. I am asking you, if since you waited and continue to, if its disappointing and ends of affecting the rest of your marriage, what would you do?

    • itpainsme2say

      If i maried him I would hope I trusted him with my secrets and dreams also that he did the same. I have things about me that would have to be known before marriage and if he could love me through those things I would hope to make it through sex being lack luster. I would do everything to make it better and keep in mind the love because I’m loyal and hardheaded and I dont give up on people normaly. Also because of my beliefs (not religion) devorce is not an option unless cheating, rape, murder of another party, etc but not difrences. Cheating is betrale of each other and yourself so I would never and I would hope to marry someone who felt the same.

    • Me-Me

      That is always the hope sweetie. I can see you aren’t jaded yet, and I hope it all works out for you. How you say cheating is divorcible, lets go with that. So lets say you wait and you have hopes and it all starts off right, but sex is so important and you both find you cant abide the other or it just sucks so you don’t want to. What do you think happens? People go where they can get what they want. Love is not usually a factor. Its physical needs and if you and your future spouse just cant get it right, and never gets better, and he or you steps out? That is my entire point. You wont know if you cant abide him sexually until its too late. Divorce is expensive. Heartbreaks cost more, takes your soul.

    • Kay_Sue

      I like your live and let live philosophy, but I have to say–and I’m sorry, in a way–that you have some flawed views of sex.

      While sex doesn’t have to be the center of a relationship–and there are relationships that are committed and loving without it–for most, you’re going to find that being compatible in bed is critical to your overall happiness. Check out Dear Prudence or TruuConfessions and see how many women/men complain that they don’t feel loved because their partner has a different definition of intimacy than their partners…and the flipside of that is the number that feel henpecked because their partner always wants sex and they do not. Understanding each other’s sex drive, “kinks”, and overall preferences is crucial going into a lifelong relationship.

      Sex may not last forever, but in the average marriage, it’s going to be a REALLY LONG TIME. Like, fifty-ish good sexing years. I married at 23. You can reasonably expect to be having sex into your 60s. That’s over 40 sex years for us, and that is an awful long time to be stuck with trying to please or be pleased by someone that you aren’t compatible.

      I think at the end of the day it’s really important for everyone to make these decisions for themselves, but I also think it’s important that one’s expectations be realistic too. Sex isn’t incidental in a marriage or lifelong relationship–rather the opposite, in that it has a very ancillary function.

      You don’t necessarily have to have sex to understand these things, either–just don’t sell it short.

    • Kelly

      Except her views aren’t flawed, because she’s only applying them to herself.

      Sex genuinely isn’t important to some people and that’s ok. Every human being deserves the right to decide what sex is to them and how important it is to them.

    • Kay_Sue

      I can see that, but I still think underestimating it is a mistake.

    • Kay_Sue

      I actually thought I’d phrased it as “I think” and not so concrete, too. Should have reread a little more before I hit post.

    • itpainsme2say

      Thank you so much Kelly for seeing what I was trying to say and defending me.

    • itpainsme2say

      I’m sorry that you think my view is skewed but it’s not because I want talk about kinks and what feels good but I don’t want it to be everything. I have a hard time believe those peoples only problem was sex and not communication. Also I don’t want it to be ‘critical to my happiness’ because it’s not that important not really. I’m a virgin but that’s not all I am I don’t need sex to be happy now so why would I later.

    • moonie27

      Sex=basic biological need. Makes people feel good. Very good. Having bad sex is not good. Having no sex is alright, but having good sex is better.

      (Some people are asexual, so maybe don’t need it?)

    • Kay_Sue

      Honestly? Never needed sex as a virgin either. It wasn’t until I found a partner that I was comfortable with and enjoyed the activity that it became a need. Now, going more than a few days without noticeably increases my irritability. Luckily, my husband makes time for me (and I for him) and our drives are fairly compatible.

      There are folks that are asexual and don’t need it at all, and that’s fine. Like I said, you don’t have to HAVE sex to find things out. You do, however, need to be comfortable talking about it. If you meet a wonderful person, and they have a much higher sex drive…yes, it is difficult. Or if you have that higher sex drive…yes, it is difficult. Sex isn’t just a want in many relationships, it’s a basic necessity. It’s a way of connecting with your partner in a way you share with no one else, and there are many people for whom a sexless relationship would not work…just as there are many others for whom it would work. You can communicate about everything else flawlessly, and if you want it six times a week and your partner only wants it once a month, that will become an issue.

      I do find it skewed. Definitely doesn’t mean you are wrong. If anything, I hope you take from this conversation just how important talking about sex with your partners is, because here we are, two individuals, with such vastly different views of the activity and its role in a relationship.

    • itpainsme2say

      But I am comfortable talking about sex as I mentioned before. Sex is good and fun but if your husband could not have it would you leave him and would expect him to leave you if you couldn’t either. Relationships are about more than sex so why cloud the issue

    • Me-Me

      I mentioned before too, that my hubs fought a 4 year cancer battle at the start of our relationship. The time when we should’ve been hot in the sheets, we couldn’t. But I never even considered leaving. We didn’t have sex for over 2 years. It was hard, very hard and it made me feel bad about myself even tho I knew it wasn’t about me. It hurt. But after a few years I got over it. We got to know each other on such a deeper level. 6 years later, we have sex 1-2 times a year. Right now its going on 6 months no action (he’s in remission). But I never left, wasn’t a deal breaker and I never even had a thought to cheat cuz what we had was more special that 10 min with some stranger to get off. That’s where toys/vibrators come in. It is hard to not have sex, to this day. I bug him sometimes and he’s trying to find a way to start doing it. But if we never have a ‘normal’ sex life ever, its fine with me. Others have told me that they couldn’t do it. But its love, true love.

    • Kay_Sue

      Like I said, just…don’t underestimate it. As long as you’re comfortable talking to your partners about it, it’s totally reasonable to assume you’ll be able to suss out any sex-related discrepancies.

      And while I wouldn’t expect him to leave me, we probably would discuss other options. I know it’s important to him, and I know he feels unfulfilled without it. Why would I want him to go unfulfilled for the remainder of our marriage? We would approach it like we have approached any issue in our marriage–together, and with open communication.

      I do not, however, see value in basing decisions on a scenario that is fairly unlikely. The possibility that one might, at some point, be unable to engage in sex doesn’t devalue it, anymore than saying I’m not going to be able to breath one day devalues me enjoying my life today.

  • Plonk

    My father told me never to go on a date with someone who hadn’t asked for my hand first, but also to never get married because it would ruin my life. (And that if I brought a boy home, he’d take his gun and shoot him.) Apparently some people just want their daughters to become nuns.
    Obviously I went behind his back, because that’s what teenagers do, and so did many of my friends with crazy parents. I still don’t understand what’s so terrible about dating and having sex. Even Maslow puts it at the very bottom of his pyramid.

    I knew someone from a very strict Catholic family who had to endure the whole chaste courtship thing. Once she went on a pelerinage, and when she came back she was beating herself up because she had done something terrible. I thought maybe she had killed someone or taken drugs or what do you know, but she had only held hands with her fiancé unchapperoned.
    Last I heard they had three children, so I guess it turned out ok, but really I don’t think it was worth all those years of angst.

    • Me-Me

      That’s so sad that even just the act of hand holding with her intended, caused her so much grief. I think its a disservice to raise people to think that way. It opens the door for so many psychological issues. And that if they end up actually enjoying sex, then they are bad and a whore. Back in the day, like medieval times, women weren’t supposed to enjoy the act, and if they did, they were beaten and shamed. So you got guilt, shame, being uncomfortable with the most natural act..ect. Don’t do it, don’t talk about it, DONT like it. If you do then you’re bad-wrong. Holding hands shouldn’t make someone feel guilty.

  • MellyG

    The issues i have with “chaste courting” is three fold. 1) I feel like it sends a message that sex is wrong, or dirty – and it’s not. As Eve said, Sex, so long as it’s safe and consensual, is a very wonderful thing. 2) i feel like preaching chastity ONLY sort of gives a woman the impression that her entire worth is in her sexuality, and that is disturbing. 3) my grandmother once told me you’d never buy a car without a test drive, and marriage is a much longer commitment than a car……

  • Kelly

    You know, I spent my whole life hearing my mom brag about she had only been with my dad and hearing how everybody was a whore. Girls on TV were whores. Girls in magazines were whores. Girls in bikinis at the beach were whores.

    When I asked my mom to get on birth control because I was having crippling premenstrual cramps and birth control had helped my cousin with the same issue, she screeched “WHORE!” at me and slapped me across the face. When she found out I wasn’t a virgin at 18, she chanted, “WHORE, FUCKING WHORE!” while attacking me and threw me out of the house.

    I ended up working in the sex industry and was actually a *wait for it* whore at several of the legal brothels in Nevada. I don’t regret it a bit or have any shame about it and I actually really enjoyed working there.

    Now, I can’t say my parents’ slut shaming parenting style contributed to me becoming a honest to god shameless whore but… it might be something for parents to think about. LOL

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      UGH I read this wrong and I got all excited because I thought a ‘wait for it” whore meant that people had to line up and wait to see you like in a Disneyworld queue but then I realized I just read it wrong. :( BUT that sucks your mom treated you that way and that’s the whole sort of thing I am firmly against.

    • MellyG

      Maybe she was that good that she DID have a disneyworld esque queue! Ya never know!

      And i’m sorry your mom was so unreasonable.

    • Kelly

      LMAO, I like your interpretation. I was never quite that popular and I like to shower in between but that did put a hilarious picture in my head.

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      I srsly almost googled it, I was all NEW FANCY KINDA WHORE! Like, I srsly thought either long queue OR that you had a waiting list about who would be your first costumer. I wish you would write about all this for us

    • Kelly

      Maybe someday. I don’t think it’s as interesting as people expect it to be though.

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      idk, I think people would love it, and you could do it under a pseudonym if ya wanted

    • MellyG

      I would. I’ve read a lot about the ranches in Nevada, and find it interesting. I personally think it’s empowering, but that’s just me.

    • Me-Me

      At least I was never called a whore, or not to my face anyways. But I get how it works for some people to only be with one person their entire lives, but how boring! How do you find out what you like or don’t if you are never able to experience the differences? Maybe sex with that one person is horrible? Maybe your mom screaming whore at anyone about anything, maybe she was just deep inside jealous that they were getting to experience life, the joys and pain and here she was stuck with the same penis her whole life. I wouldn’t trade my ‘experience’ for only one ‘adventure’ for anything.

    • Guest

      One doesn’t really have anything to do with the other. It sounds like a love less family and mental instability.

  • Rachel Sea

    There is nothing empowering about sidestepping an issue. Empowerment comes from facing a decision head on, and making a rational, informed choice that satisfies your own needs, desires, and values.

    • http://www.benwhoski.com/ Benwhoski

      That is an excellently concise way of putting that and I love it.

  • arrow2010

    Godless heathens, all of you.

    • Kay_Sue

      And damned proud of it, sir! #GodlessHeathensUnite

    • Lackadaisical

      We need flags and t-shirts.

    • Kay_Sue

      Absolutely. Someone needs to get on the merchandising, stat.

    • pixie

      AND BEDAZZLED JACKETS AND GIANT WINE GLASSES!

    • Kay_Sue

      YES. How do we make this happen?

    • MellyG

      I want bedazzled wine glasses!!!!!

    • Kay_Sue

      Me too. I want a whole collection of them, bedazzled with all of the things we get called here at Mommyish…

    • MellyG

      I actually DO own wine glasses with rhinestones. Skulls and my initials mostly…….none that say godless heathen though :(

    • Kay_Sue

      You simply *must* expand your collection to include it. It’s a must have.

    • Lackadaisical

      Yes, that is definitely what us godless heathen need. A combination of wine, rhinestones and skull pictures. Our flags and t shirts must include rhinestones and skulls (or rhinestone dinosaurs on a backing showing vegetation of the cretaceous period). We also get all the godless heathen girl scout cookies, which I have never tasted as they don’t sell them in the UK but from the sounds of it are far, far tastier than communion wafers.

    • MellyG

      you’ve NEVER tasted girl scout cookies? someone needs to send you some. Where are you in the UK? I hope to move there this summer, visas permitting, but looks like i’ll have to bring a stash of thin mints!

    • brebay

      I’ll tell you who I would fuck on the first date; whoever thought of these girl scout cookie coffee creamers!

    • Lackadaisical

      Yes, our girl scouts (called guides) don’t sell cookies unless it’s a bake sale stall at a fête of cakes and biscuits they have made themselves. Also a lot of girls join scouts instead (your equivalent of boy scouts) so to us a girl scout would be a girl who joined a “boy” scout group. All of this is fine and dandy but it leaves me without a steady supply of tasty treats that raise funds for an awesome (godless heathen) organisation.

      I live in York, in the north of England. Where in the UK are you looking at moving?

    • Me-Me

      Plus, I may be Godless, but I am a better person than plenty of Godly people! Pagan and proud!

    • Me-Me

      I am “Godless” but I am not a heathen.

    • brebay

      I’m your friendly neighborhood atheist.

  • chickadee

    Ugh. I read that article, and it felt like Disney bluebirds were about to shoot out of that website and straight up my ass.

  • Me-Me

    I dislike the whole chaste thing. I mean I am sure its good-in theory. But the physical side of a relationship is so very important. I think it does send the wrong message that if you have sex, you are dirty or morally corrupt. I started early. Too early but not really by choice. My mom was open about the sex stuff but I still couldn’t tell her until I was 17 with a serious BF, even tho he wasn’t the first. But I was one of those girls who for some reason thought that sex=love. It so doesn’t. So for quite a few years I went wild. But I was also molested for many years as a young girl so I had issues anyways. Looking back, sure I regret SOME of the men but they made me who I am today. Those experiences. Taught me what I wanted, who I wanted and what I deserved. Yes, when I was younger all my relationships were based on sex. But I grew from that. I married a man I adore! But a few months in to our relationship, we found out he had cancer. So 6 months in, the sex stopped. We didn’t have sex for over 2 years. So for the first time, I got to know someone outside of sex and realized that for once, sex didn’t matter. So when the occasion arises now, I appreciate it so much. But if I hadn’t done what I did in my youth, I doubt I could’ve handled the no sex with my hubs. I think kids should be taught to be safe and all Eve said. But I want my girl to be able to come to me. Sex isn’t dirty or shameful. I don’t want her doing what I did, but if she does, I want to know shes safe. I didn’t have my only child til I was 25 and no STD’s. Parents shouldn’t force that on their kids. My school friend’s dad is a minister. They kept her on lock down. NO sex, NO boys ect. So guess what? In high school she went nuts and slept with over 100 guys in a year. Not exaggerating.

  • Kelly17

    I don’t agree that it is slut shaming. There is talk of younger people feeling pressured to have sex at a certain time, even into your twenties to please men. I think it is a positive thing for the kids because it does do both the things that person said. Men learn to respect women is the right way instead of pressuring her and women don’t feel pressured as a result. I don’t think that most young men really respect women, they are there for their consumption, just observe how they look at them. But it doesn’t need to be one thing or the other. Also I don’t believe in talking it to the extreme or encouraging any one extreme over the other. I honestly think that acting “promiscuous” is the norm and being a “prude” is judged. But still, everyone should have sex in the way they feel is right without any side telling them it’s wrong.

    • Me-Me

      I agree. I felt pressured at times while younger. Its strange that I was promiscuous when I was younger, but now, I am surprised to find that I am a prude. LOL. I think men/women/boys/girls should learn respect regardless if sex is involved or not. But I have a guy friend, he is a man whore. But hes good looking so it got him chicks left and right. He hit it and quit it. But he was my friend and I never fell for his ‘game’ and didn’t sleep with him. I am the only woman he respects and we’re still friends. But that was his issue. Treating women like that. I think he’s reformed now. I agree with your last statement. Whatever you choose to do, no sex, little sex or lots of sex, its whatever works for you. I do believe tho that not having any contact until marriage sets you up for failure. Maybe that’s why theres so much cheating?

    • Kelly

      Men learn to respect women in this whole, chaste parent monitored dating scenario?

      I strongly disagree with that. The men in these situations are taught that women are to be valued by their “purity.” That is not teaching them to respect women. It’s teaching them that women are defined by the lack of use of their genitals. That’s the exact opposite of respecting women.

    • Me-Me

      Which, is where those so called “Honor-killings” come in. I so agree with you here!

    • Kelly17

      No, they are getting to know each other for who they are instead of being conditioned to see them as sex objects. And since they chose to continue their faith with the same social circle it’s not as if they are valuing them over Mary in the next town over who isn’t a virgin.

    • Kelly

      I have to again strongly disagree. They aren’t getting to know them for who they are. They’re getting to know them for how they act with their parents watching them.

    • Kelly17

      Well I did state in the beginning that no extreme should be encouraged. I was going for something in the middle, sorry for not being specific enough. But I don’t think that since the values are so ingrained in them, they are secretly going to be a completely different person. And they are choosing to allow this. They don’t have to continue to follow the faith. But regardless this wasn’t even the point I was getting at in the beginning.

    • Me-Me

      But what if, this really isn’t their choice? They have to because thats what the parents said and they have no way of finding out different. That I think was the point of this post. Let them choose for themselves, they are adults. If left ALONE, and they continue as before–ok. But what if they truly want to find out more, even just kissing? Come on, they are both pretty hot, young and full of life. It’d be completely natural. But let it be THEIR choice, not the parents. They need to find out who they are, away from mommy and daddy and the Bible. Not saying they should go and have sex, but if they want to, they should be able to. They know right from wrong.

    • Kelly17

      I’ve always gotten the impression that Michelle wouldn’t force this on them. I think that Michelle especially is so sweet and loving that I just don’t see her disowning her daughters or even getting angry at them for disagreeing or rejecting it. The girls also seem interested and supportive of the lifestyle.

    • Me-Me

      I wonder tho, how she would act if one of the kids, at some point said screw all the religious crap and your chasteness and went at it? I am sure they would still love them, of course. But how would they treat them or would they shame them ect? It seems that those kinds of people, if you go against their wishes, they go bat shit. They seem good people. But how would they? Like with that ‘honor killing’ shit. Those people are super religious and if you don’t conform, you die or some craziness. But what if, again, they only seem to support this because that’s all they know and aren’t given the opportunity to see if in truth, it works for them?

    • Me-Me

      Zing! Seriously tho, what happens when they are alone? When the real, uncensored, unchaperoned, personalities come out? When mommy and daddy aren’t hovering, they aren’t being judged, or given the look to behave? What does happen? What if they find that who they are away from prying eyes are horrid people? What if its all a show? Then you’re stuck.

    • brebay

      What’s especially sad is that they’ve been taught that the first time, on their wedding night will feel AMAZING!! It may, but it more than likely won’t. I can think of much better ways to spend my honeymoon than getting my hymen torn, thanks.

    • MellyG

      That’s exactly what unnverves me about it. If you’re not a virgin, you’re worthless. I don’t like the idea of my worth being tied into my vagina.

    • Me-Me

      Yes. Your worth should be based on who you are, not if you’ve had sex. I hate how they basically say that if you have sex without the ring, that you’re damned, dirty, shameful, ungodly, wrong. I bet those parents would think it a betrayal. DISLIKE

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  • D

    Wow-this is so offensive on so many levels. I am a virgin at 31 which would shock many of the readers (and the author) here. On every level, I am normal-successful career, great friends, etc. I am a virgin because I am religious and choose not to have sex before marriage.

    Sex is not just physical and there is nothing wrong with wanting something more permanent than a few dates before having it. I’ve lived through friends being upset when the guy didn’t call, when they found out have they STI’s, when they found out they were pregnant…Sex is beautiful but people need to understand the consequences. I’m not sure that everyone who you think can handle it can.

    • Me-Me

      I liked your second paragraph. I agree. And while I see the benefit of a few one nighters and some healthy rebound action, looking back, while I don’t regret what I’ve done, in some cases, I wish I would’ve given it a little more time before giving it up- to some of them anyways. Yes it opens you up to hurt but it also teaches you about yourself. If you found a guy who you felt was the one, and it was heading towards marriage, would you then have sex? Before the wedding?

    • Kay_Sue

      I think you missed the point a wee bit. If you CHOOSE it, that’s one thing. That’s your choice, and it’s no one’s right to deny it for you.

      But the chastity/purity movement often isn’t about choice. It’s about “this is what you do” and it gives control of your body to someone else–be it your parents or God or however they want to view it. Having lived through it, no, I’m not good with that, nor do I believe in raising my children to think that having sex casually (but responsibly) will make them a leper.

    • Me-Me

      Nailed it I think. Choosing that path for yourself, by yourself is completely different than that path being forced on you. I think if I had parents that way, I would rebel. I mean I was really sexually active, a lot, but it was for reasons other than my parents. Being forced as an adult, like the Duggar girl, to be chaperoned (at 20 yrs old!!) I think I would’ve pulled some shit and to hell with the consequences (not pregnancy or STD’s). Don’t they trust her or don’t they think they raised her to do whats right, WITHOUT them eagle eying her? If they were so sure on their parenting and their religion, then they should be able to let her go to a fricken movie, alone with her sweetie. Being alone doesn’t automatically mean they are having THE SEX. They should let their kids experience life, be there if they fall and support them. If they raised her right (what does that even mean?) then they should have no worries, in my opinion. If shes honest, loyal, respectful, a good person, kind, loving, compassionate, good morals and values then why isn’t that good enough to say Well Done? Nope, gotta be a virgin too.

    • Kay_Sue

      I agree. Being alone gives them the time to also get to know each other as individuals, and that’s so crucial. Family dynamics are always different–my family has a pretty good dynamic now…but it’s way different than when my husband and I are alone (they’re very rowdy, we tend towards quiet evenings to ourselves). I can’t imagine never getting to experience that.

    • Me-Me

      I mean what if he’s secretly a sexual sadist? Perverted and likes pain and has no care about her? I mean highly unlikely but stranger things. But, too late, they are married and they are of the view that no matter what happens, you stay. So what if he is hiding a horrible side? Then shes stuck. A woman, even a virgin on her first time, can instinctively tell if the guy is wrong. And if hes bad in bed..lol

    • Kay_Sue

      Exactly. So many variables go into it. Like I said to someone else, you don’t necessarily have to have sex to suss out your compatibilities, but you do at least need time to talk about it…preferably without your parents hovering in the background…

    • Me-Me

      They and others in the same boat, should freak their parents out by just talking about it in front of them. They insist on being there and listening so why not just fricken talk about it? Are they going to insist on showing the bloody sheet after the wedding or have her checked to make sure shes “pure”? I wouldn’t be surprised if he was getting busy on the side, while playing innocent in front of others. He’s 18!! Come on!

    • pixie

      Plus, not everyone bleeds the first time (hell, my first time was a complete and total fail) and there are a ton of other things that can break the hymen. Apparently it’s a thing in some circles for young women to have their hymens reconstructed…

    • Me-Me

      Ugh mine too! Horrible. And screw that surgery crap. If you’re going to do it, own it.

    • pixie

      Oh yeah, for sure. But there have been girls in particularly sexist and oppressive cultures/households who have broken their hymens horseback riding or doing gymnastics and their parents freak out and insist it being done so as to not upset the future husband’s family. *shudder* I can’t imagine living in that sort of situation.

    • Me-Me

      Okay yes, in that case. I couldn’t live like that either. Its a good thing we don’t have to live under that sharia law shit. Or if a woman is raped (naturally her fault and she should die for her shame), then yes, I see that. But in other cultures, just own it.

    • pixie

      No disagreements there ;)

    • http://www.benwhoski.com/ Benwhoski

      I was a virgin until age 33, by choice, so I don’t think it’s quite as shocking to folks as you think it is. In my case it was not a religious choice, but that I simply was not ready for that level of intimacy with someone and had not yet found the right relationship for it (which in my case is not a relationship headed for marriage, despite being a healthy and loving long-term relationship).

      And as others have stated, it is the choice that makes the difference here.

      I think everyone agrees that anyone should understand and be ready to handle the potential emotional and physical repercussions of sex. What I feel the author is objecting to here is the common implication that to have had sexual contact makes one “impure” or somehow “lesser”.

      Not being a virgin doesn’t define a person anymore than being a virgin does.

    • Me-Me

      A thousand times YES! I feel and I am sure most others do to, would rather it be like your situation than these poor kids being forced to it. I said earlier that if they felt they did their job right, then they should be able to leave these ADULTS alone to figure it all out for themselves. If they so choose to continue this way, made by their own choice between them alone, then awesome. I would freak out if I had my parents shadowing me even now but more so at that age. Come on. They are adults. Let them choose, after all, it is them two who have to live together and deal with each other, not mommy and daddy. To your last statement- I feel that sometimes its felt that if you’re a virgin, then your cold, no passion, stuck up and prudish. At the same time those that have sex, are sluts, dirty, sinners, wrong ect. And I hate when religion forces people to do things. Find your own mind.

  • CW

    Where’s the happy middle ground between a 100% chaste courtship without even kissing and having lots of casual teen hookups? How about waiting until you are (A) an adult and (B) in a committed, monogamous relationship headed towards marriage? I don’t know how realistic it is to expect couples to wait all the way until their wedding night, but that doesn’t mean I am okay with teen sex or casual sex at any age.

    • Me-Me

      Very nicely put. I agree. I think it would be smart for people to wait until they are mentally capable to deal with what happens. Doesn’t mean a specific age or anything.

    • chickadee

      Well, I’m fine with treading the path of “in a committed relationship” and “old enough to understand the implications,” but for me, it does NOT have to be heading towards marriage.

      Casual sex, when everyone is on the same page, is no big deal.

    • Me-Me

      And in some cases is very healthy. Rebounds are too. Its natural and necessary in my opinion.

    • chickadee

      I agree. My parents were the no-sex-before-marriage-or-you’ll-go-to-hell kind of Catholics, but they weren’t obsessive about it.

    • http://www.benwhoski.com/ Benwhoski

      There’s plenty of happy middle ground to be had, which is where the vast, vast majority of us exist. As far as I can tell, Eve is just stating the opinion that, of the two extremes, the latter would be preferable to the former (provided, as she stated, the sex was responsible and consensual).

  • Williwaw

    There’s nothing wrong with waiting a long time to have sex the first time – maybe you’re a late bloomer, or you didn’t find the right person, or you’re shy, or you want to wait till you love the person, or whatever. The problem I have with the chastity movement is that it is very judgmental, even though some of its supporters claim not to be. Chastity supporters will say that they have the right to do what they choose with their bodies, and that’s true…but the term “chaste” by itself is offensive because of the heavy moralizing weight behind it. One of Merriam-Webster’s definitions for “chaste” is “morally pure or decent – not sinful”. Therefore, when you use that term to describe your choice to delay sex, you are in effect saying that not being chaste is sinful, that not being chaste is impure, that not being chaste is not decent. I don’t have a problem with people who don’t want to have sex now, or this year, or before marriage, or ever. I have a problem with people who think it makes them morally superior to people who do have sex.

    • Me-Me

      But in the case of kids living in a family that advocates being ‘chaste’ like the Duggars, they DON’T have the choice. If they leave them alone, and they continue as before, but without supervision, then it IS their choice. Those parents are making that choice for them, they are never to be alone or talk of more than the Bible, or do more than a 2 second hug. However, people who choose on their own terms to stay virgins, most of the time, not always, aren’t very judgmental. Usually if its a choice outside of religion, then I don’t see many “you’re a dirty slut and I am not”. Like some of the posters here, they are choosing to stay a virgin, that’s not saying they haven’t messed around and experimented, but are choosing to save the final coarse for somebody special or whatever they choose. I am totally cool with that and I have the utmost respect for that, because they are still living and learning. Unlike the Duggars.

    • Williwaw

      I totally agree. I guess I was just trying to emphasize that when people label their choice not to have sex as “chastity”, I think it is very judgmental and slut-shamey, even when they insist that they are not judging others.

    • Me-Me

      Yep, I agree with you too! Chastity is such an outdated and sometimes hurtful word. This isn’t the 1200′s.

    • itpainsme2say

      i replyed to the wrong thing sorry

    • Me-Me

      But with me, I applaud you because you made that choice all on your own without your parents. Hey, pre-marital works for some, and not others. I totally don’t knock waiting if its your own damn choice. But tho you may be a virgin, as you said the rest is up for discussion. And I really like that. Its saying your not a prude or uptight, to me anyways. Its saying sure, lets check this other stuff out but to go all the way, gotta be married. So at least you will have some idea of what you do and don’t like. That is so very important.

    • itpainsme2say

      Thank you that was what i was geting at, I made a choice no one else and I am happy with it. I also wanted to say other people are other people and unless you share my bed when you have sex is not my buisness, I mean you can tell me if you like but I wont judge.

    • Me-Me

      That’s all I think the people talking about, this whole chaperoned chastity crap is if the choice was these kids choice. Made on their very own. Without mommy and daddy and all that. Then that’s awesome. But whats not awesome is making your 20 year old child have her parents with her everywhere and making sure that they are not alone-ever. If she chose that, in her own mind and heart, even after being left completely alone with this guy, left to make that choice, she chose the whole chaste thing, then Bravo. Not my choice but not my life. Like gay marriage. If she understands the pros and cons to waiting or going ahead, knows that if she waits and it ends up sucking and making for a poor marriage, then she can deal with what could and does happen. Same as going ahead and doing it to see whats the big deal and why shouldn’t she do it..lol

    • itpainsme2say

      We are so on the same page. I also dont like it when they act like its a prize at the end of the tunnel and its going to be all satin and roses. Its not from what I hear even if it doesnt hurt it is sweaty, sticky, and smells not perfect like some make it out to be if you wait. It is good and worth it but I wish they would be realistic

    • Me-Me

      Oh its not. It can be amazing and beautiful but also horrid and disgusting. And honestly, if the guy doesn’t know what hes doing, or its his first time, it makes it SO much worse for the girl. See, two people with different life choices can agree.

    • itpainsme2say

      ya I love that you get it and honestly I hope who ever it is at least knows how to find it if not have toched one before. Like it hurts to think of the fumbuling for my sake and Jessa’s.

    • Me-Me

      Yes.. but hopefully when you find Mr Worthy (I wont say right), you will have experimented enough so it goes a bit easier than poor Jessa’s probably will. Why wouldn’t her mother think of that? Does she want the first time to suck? Usually the first time colors your opinion of sex for either the rest of your life or many years. I would want my girl to at least know more than what goes where. My first time was with a virgin. We were very young, I wasn’t quite ready but we did. He had wanted to wait til marriage, obviously it didn’t happen and it was awful. I hated it every time. So when I found a guy that it felt good and didn’t hurt every time, I kept on going..lol.

    • itpainsme2say

      Im glad you stuck it out. Also you know they only have sex like 2 weeks in a month, never when prego and only four monthes after. So if its that bad for her she wont have to do it very much.

    • Me-Me

      Touche! Good point, didn’t know that..lol. I spose for them, if it sucks–NO worries! They had a damn lot of kids for doing it 2 weeks only.. But I’d like to hope that after all that practice, he’s at least good at it damn.

    • Me-Me

      And don’t forget the basic need to know the physical attributes. What if hes too big, or very small. If you don’t know, and have no experience with sex, I would hate to be in that position!

    • Me-Me

      Haha how you said unless you’re in my bed not your business thing, I wonder if they would stand outside and listen, since they listen to all convos and text, ect. LOL. I know they wont. I am being a smartass

  • Karen

    I was with you all the way up until the one night stand portion. I myself am too terrified of diseases strangers might be carrying to have sex without at least knowing someone more than a few hours, so I would hate to think of my kid out there possibly catching any of that horror and being stuck with it forever.

    • Me-Me

      No you’re right. But there is danger in everything. Sometimes tho, after a bad break up or too much alcohol, it happens. Most of the time, nothing bad happens if you’re careful. It does happen, too often, you go home with a weirdo and end up on the news or get preggers or something else permanent. I never had any of that happen thank the Gods. But the one nighters happen, a lot more than people will admit. So if you’re going to, or plan to or you’re going out and just don’t know, do what you can to play safe.

  • brebay

    Here’s the way to remember it, Duggar girls: “No boys below the waist, no denim above the waist.”

  • Guest

    At some point this argument went from, “Don’t tell me how to live my life, abstainers!” to “Let me tell you how to live your life, abstainers!” Don’t you see the irony?

    • Me-Me

      I don’t see that. I see people who disagree with parents forcing their children into being ‘chaste’. Most of us, agree that if the choice was made by these kids alone, without the parents then that’s cool. We see the downside of the whole NO TOUCHING until you are married thing, but also see the positive side of such choice if made by themselves, for themselves.

    • itpainsme2say

      thank you some people were acting like no matter what my choice to remain a virgin was wrong. even after i said my reasons they were like ‘i see what you mean but you should still have sex b4 marriage because thats what worked for me’.

    • Nutter Butter

      Yea but in reality, a bunch of strangers on a message board will have no affect on your life sister.. But it helps to talk and vent and argue. I am glad I wasn’t one of those who berated you

    • itpainsme2say

      I think you for that and the follow

    • Nutter Butter

      You have a FB?

  • Me-Me

    I guess as a mother of a daughter who isn’t too far from having to worry about this (shes 8), I would want my girl to do whats best for her. I’d prefer she know more than what goes where, theoretically, than to be blind sided. I said to another girl that why would the Duggar mom or other moms like this, want their children knowing nothing? Sex, especially the first time can be unpleasant. Why would they want her totally naïve about it? Knowing nothing about her body or what she likes? Not saying they should just get at it, but let them find things out. They don’t have to have sex, but would a little kissing or touching hurt? I don’t want my girl to slut it up of course, like me. But if she did, I would want to make DAMN sure she was safe and it was ok with her, not cuz the guy wanted to. I hope she feels she can come to me when that time comes, no matter her age.

    • http://www.benwhoski.com/ Benwhoski

      Yeah, the no-touching, no-kissing is really extreme. I remember my first kiss as being extremely awkward. Like “we accidentally banged our teeth painfully together” awkward. Can you imagine that happening for the first time having just been married?

    • Me-Me

      So imagine if their first kiss at their wedding was awkward, what will happen once the consumating starts?

    • http://www.benwhoski.com/ Benwhoski

      I would guess a lot of “Uhhh… is it supposed to look like that?”

  • brebay

    Jana, the oldest Duggar daughter is 24 years old! If you can’t trust your 24-year-old grown daughter to walk to the Dairy Queen with a young man without fucking on the way, you’ve really raised quite a jem!

    • MellyG

      have they ever really been out alone? By 24 i was living on the other side of the country…..but i get the impression the Duggars were home schooled, no college….that just has to be odd. Do they have ANY independence?

    • Me-Me

      No, none. That’s why its absurd. A 20 yr old woman not allowed to conversate with a man without her parents hovering and controlling what they talk about. So they can only talk religion, nothing that actually matters in the scheme of what’s important in marriage outside of the bible.

    • MellyG

      As someone who has lived away from my parents since 18, which I imagine is most of us, that just seems SOOO bizarre. I’m way too independent for that crap, but i guess if you grow up with it, maybe it just seems the norm. But also, if parents have always hovered, when they DO get married, have a house, etc – what happens? That would be so odd to me as my first time “alone”.

    • Me-Me

      I’d rather we know what it is we were agreeing too before signing that paper. Yes yes in theory marriage is birds singing and perfect harmony but lots of people found out different. Some guys I’ve been with, I would cry if I had married them before the sex.

    • brebay

      Yeah, I can’t imagine from going from living with my parents to living with my husband. Those alone years in your little hole of an apartment that you decorate with stuff from craft fairs in the park…the excitement of having your whole, own space, that was a wonderful time in my life. And no, I wasn’t having tons of random sex!

    • brebay

      The sad thing is, in the older specials, Jessa was the one who talked about being a doctor and wanting to go away to college. She was so spunky, I thought she might escape…sadly, no….BOYS are doctors, GIRLS are midwives (Not bashing midwives, but I wish she would have gone to school away form Arkansas and found her own path).

  • Ananya

    I believe in staying a virgin until marriage. Its my own decision that I made independently of my mom. Does that mean I’m a horrible person? Seriously, when will society stop looking down on people who decide to take that decision?

    • Me-Me

      No you missed the point. Society doesn’t look down on people who make that choice for THEMSELVES. If you made that all on your own without mommy and daddy and being forced, the awesome! Why would staying a virgin make you a horrible person? Why would you even say that? I hope you were kidding. Or being sarcastic. Or how about certain types stop looking down on those who choose to have sex as dirty sinners? The entire reason for this post, in case you missed it or didn’t comprehend is that if the Duggar girl was making this choice, this chaste courtship on her own terms, more power to her. But as she is 20 years old, and her parents wont let her even hug the guy, kiss, hold hands, or have a convo outside of religion, is what is absurd. She is a grown ass woman and if they raised her as well as they think, then she should be allowed to be alone with her potential spouse to het to know each other away from prying eyes and big ears. I mean how can you find out important stuff outside of the damn bible about your potential spouse if you cant talk about anything but religion? There are so many important things besides God when it comes to a happy healthy marriage. They, as adults, should be able to find this out. She knows right form wrong. Whats wrong with trusting your kids to do whats right on their own terms?

    • http://Mommyish.com/ Eve Vawter

      Thank you, you said everything I would have, but much better

    • Me-Me

      Thank you. I try!

  • Me-Me

    My first marriage, my husband and I waited. Not because we would have in a normal situation but seeing as we were both in the Army, in training at the time then sent to separate bases, no opportunity. So no choice but to wait. I was young, 19 but experienced. I thought. Well my ex husband was uncircumcised. Didn’t know what that was, never seen one. I was in for a surprise let me tell you! I said, what is that? He had to explain it. How awkward and I hope to this day I didn’t embarrass him. But I wish I would’ve known before, so I wasn’t caught off guard. It was different, sex with an un cut man. Had no idea. Kinda sucked but now I know!

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  • Me-Me

    Ok guys, in any of my hundred posts here, do you guys think im nuts or crazy or the antichrist?

  • Me-Me

    I wish I could just go jump my hubs right now..

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  • Alice Young

    This article is incredibly disturbing. One night stands ok? Umm, I don’t think so.

    My response here:

    http://www.theitoldyousogirl.com

    Get a grip no matter how “responsible” things happen. To encourage this type of risky behavior is beyond me.

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